Genuine Catholic Church Reform May Be Out Of Reach

Cardinal Pell’s return to Australia to faces charges concerning sexual abuse among clergy is a sobering reminder of how bad things are within the Church. If Pope Francis, or any Pope, wanted to find a set of Cardinals who had not presided over priests who abused children and hid them, he would have a tough time.  At least that is how it looks from the outside.

Cardinal Pell has admitted to having made bad mistakes years ago with pediphile priests. In the U.S. pediphile priests were moved from one diocese to another instead of being turned over to law enforcement. If Cardinal Pell did such a thing back when he was a Bishop, it seems he should resign. Any organization that claims to hold the “moral high ground” needs to rid itself of those who do not measure up.

The problem appears to be so many Bishops covered up errant priests the cupboard is empty. It is difficult if not impossible to find enough leaders who are squeaky clean.

Many of those who leave the Catholic faith complain about the child abuse scandal. The Catholic Church seems to me to see the abuse scandal the way private companies see bad press because of faulty products. Companies make settlements, move on to other products and often survive.

The Church, however, has only one product, its moral standards. That product has turned out to be faulty and there is no new product to sell.

45 Responses

  1. entech

    Pell has long been known as an ambitious man with aspirations to the top job. Even now the mentality of such people is such that he still thinks it is only age that is holding him back, probably still hoping that if Francis gets sick he will have his chance.
    The only thing that matters to Pell and so many like him is the reputation of the Church and his position in the hierarchy, I say his because a female could not even dream about any position above tea maker. Any one with even the slightest trace of a moral conscience would have taken early retirement long ago.

  2. If you want scandal look no further than the Democrat party and its felons and unconvicted criminals like Hillary Clinton, Podesta, Obama, Warren, Soros, etc. They all claim a much higher moral high ground and set themselves above and beyond the reach of the law.

    Anyone who abuses children should be arrested, tried and convicted. So where is your moral outrage when illegal aliens in the USA rape, abuse, steal and murder? Where is your moral outrage when swarms of immigrants in to Europe rape, abuse, steal and murder? We all know the liberal propagandists like you have no concern for those crimes, so long as you can get some votes off illegal aliens to support your candidates.

    The Forum should shut down this blog. It is nothing but hate disguised as free thinking. There is no free thinking going on; just hate. It takes people like me and others to confront the bullies, liars and haters. Standing up for good people is noble, is correct and is needed in society.

    1. Matt 10:44 The Forum should shut down this blog. It is nothing but hate disguised as free thinking. There is no free thinking going on; just hate. It takes people like me and others to confront the bullies, liars and haters. Standing up for good people is noble, is correct and is needed in society.

      You give yourself credit for doing something you did not do. You imply you have countered what I wrote in by blog. What I wrote was simply that so many Bishops, so it appears, covered up priests who abused children that it is now hard to find Cardinals that are clean of this sin. Writing about this is not “hate”, it is simply observing and telling others what I see. Am I wrong about this? Was Cardinal Pell wrong when he said he had made “mistakes” in handling pedophilia cases while a Bishop?? Does Pell “hate” his church because he admitted these mistakes?

      The facts are simple. Catholic clergy were told, or led to believe, they were not obligated to laws requiring prosecution of sex offenders. So they hid them by moving offenders around from parish to parish. This practice has left the Catholic Church with a bad image, some would say the imagery of evil. So, an effort was begun to reverse this. The position is, “We’re sorry about all that. But, we’re still going to claim moral superiority and try to put our religion into government. And, we’re going to retain our billions of dollars. We will lie to retain these billions if necessary. These lies are OK because we are the world’s authority on morals.”

      Please refute these facts.

      1. Matt Noah

        You’re a disgusting fraud. List every cardinal for the past 30 years and detail their culpability. You find one article about Cardinal Pell and you merrily indict the entire college of cardinals and a dead Pope, one who is a saint.

        If you care anything about abuse, which you don’t, you would write about what I stated regarding illegal immigrants, Muslim immigrants on Europe and others. But bigots have only one target.

        1. Matt 8:45 If you care anything about abuse, which you don’t, you would write about what I stated regarding illegal immigrants, Muslim immigrants on Europe and others

          I don’t write much about them because I write about those who tell us in the U.S. they are the moral leaders and want their religious views to be embedded into government. One of those is the Catholic Church.

          1. Again, you are a fraud. The public schools hold themselves in a position of moral superiority and yet child abuse, including sexual abuse is apparently higher in that institution than in any Christian or non-Christian religious community. Politics also holds itself in moral superiority. The “Supreme” Court sure sounds like it holds itself in a position of moral superiority.

            You remind me of a klansman who would only write about the Negro population because they hold their cause of equality as morally superior to the Klan, wanting their views to be embedded into government.

            Most people want their views embedded into government, whether religious, non-religious, liberal, conservative, etc.

            You use the excuse of your anti-theistic views to limit your criticism and hatred towards one slice of America. Any way you measure it, it is called bigotry. Justify it any way you want, it is hate-filled bigotry.

          2. Matt 10:13 Again, you are a fraud. The public schools hold themselves in a position of moral superiority and yet child abuse, including sexual abuse is apparently higher in that institution than in any Christian or non-Christian religious community.

            A few days ago I posted here what I found about sexual child abuse in public schools versus Catholic clergy. I looked up the reported numbers of Catholic clergy and public school teachers. Then I looked up the number of sexual abuse cases in each. The frequency of sexual abuse is slightly higher among Catholic clergy than among public school teachers. I called it about the same.

            The two groups are different in that Catholic clergy (and some other branches of Christianity) claim to represent God while public school teachers as a group do not.

            If you have other information you are welcome to post it here.

          3. Chuck Z posted it.

            Again, you don’t respond to the meat of the matter but pick off a side issue which you think you can defend. This is typical of what a klansman might do.

          4. Matt 11:56 Please get serious for a change. Chuck Z referred to TOTAL cases, not the statistical danger. That is the “meat of the matter.” Going to a public school is not more dangerous than going to a Priest and visa versa. This is simply a fact.

            The other fact is that the Church claims to be carrying out God’s program. Public schools do not make that claim.

          5. Chuck Z

            No institution is more entrusted with the well being of our children than the education system. This is why you have absolutely zero credibility. Every blog you write is a veiled attack on religion. Child abuse? You aren’t really concerned about it, it’s just a front for your latest attack. I posted numerous articles a while back. Kids are far more likely to get sexually assaulted in school than they are anywhere else, and that is a fact proven by the education departments own study. But child abuse isn’t really important to you, it’s just a means for you to take your latest jab at religion.

            https://edsource.org/2014/schools-failing-to-protect-students-from-sexual-abuse-by-school-personnel-federal-report-says/57023

          6. Chuck Z 3:57 Kids are far more likely to get sexually assaulted in school than they are anywhere else, and that is a fact proven by the education departments own study.

            I did not see that statement in what you posted. There certainly is a problem with sexual abuse in public schools. In terms of teachers who abuse, the odds are not higher that a teacher abuses than there is that a priest abuses–that is what I found by dividing the numbers of each by data on the abuse by each. Maybe there are better numbers somewhere, those are the ones I found.

            I have to repeat, teachers do not claim to be agents of God. Catholic priests do.

  3. entech

    Poor Matt, your blinkers are blinding you.. In the case of Pell the media are merely reporting on an almost decade long government inquiry.

    And here we go yet again others do it therefore we are not to be condemned because at heart we are Noble and correct and standup for the good people who are our employees – they are the victims not the children.

    1. Matt Noah

      Thank you. It was insightful. It illustrates Jon’s willful lack of concern for abuse victims and his hatred and persecution of Christianity.

      The lapdog are no better.

  4. entech

    Certainly points to the idea that statistics can prove or disprove whatever the statistician requires.

    My main problem here is how someone like Nicky/Robby clan wholeheartedly endorse the words of an atheist when it suits their purpose.

    The pieces are written from the point of view of 1. an anthropologist and 2. a sociologist. One atheist making contrary and very critical findings to another. Lets hear from a couple of Christians on the differences between faith and grace and good works and the possibility of each getting you a free pass to heaven.

    1. Rob

      The study was discredited by those trained in the field who happen to know how to conduct an accurate study.
      It doesn’t matter to me if he was atheist or not; but I know it would have mattered to you.

      1. entech

        Not true, I am more interested in the truth than who is telling it. Perhaps that is why you seem to find me intolerable, I do not believe your belief system holds the truth. Incidentally I am not sure that mine does either, all that is required is that we keep searching.

        1. Rob

          You seem more interested in believing whatever obscure link Jon posts and calls evidence.
          I don’t find you intolerable; just very Sheldon-like: the guy from the Big Bang theory.

  5. entech

    One article Matt?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/06/29/sex-abuse-scandal-has-followed-cardinal-george-pell-for-decades/?utm_term=.b08051ccc863
    Last bit:
    “I walked with him following the Christian conviction that it’s an appropriate activity to be kind to prisoners,” Pell said. “The separation of the sheep from the goats is their acts of kindness we do to people, including those who are prisoners and those who are at the bottom of the pile like Ridsdale.”

    Decades later, the image of the two of them together was still a searing memory for some abuse victims.

    “To me it’s absolutely outrageous,” Saunders, the victims’ advocate, told “60 Minutes,” “and it demonstrates once again the callousness, the coldheartedness and the contempt that George Pell appears to display for this whole issue and particularly for the victims of these dreadful crimes.”

    I always find you so amusing Matt, you continually shout at Jon while all the time what you complain about is actually your reflection in the mirror. Read the first paragraph if you want to know about lack of sympathy for the abused and protection for the paederast priests.

  6. Joe

    I believe the evil one in this spiritual battle here on earth will go after anyone. Priests, gays, Muslims, atheists, Christians, teachers, transgenders,barber’s. He will seek to destroy and devour any soul he can through any means he can get to the individual, whether it’s murder, sex abuse, suicide. He has many tactics. Spiritual pride of priests is one of them that may lead to one of these greater sins he wants to get them to commit against God. The confusion he can create amongst gays and transgenders may lead to the high suicidal rates. Love and the mercy of Jesus need to be preached to gays and transgenders before the devil leads them to despair and ultimately suicide. Lust may be his snare he lays for teachers. We are in a spiritual warfare while on earth. If you are a Jew or Muslim or other non Christian religion and lead a good moral life. You will get to know Jesus during time in purgatory before going to heaven. God knows what’s in each individuals heart. You could even be an atheist or Satanist your whole life and at your moment of death still have a chance to be saved through Jesus.Time in purgatory for cleansing and purification may be different for everyone but if you go to purgatory you go to heaven. Only if with your own free will you decide to turn away from God, and follow satan and his demons will you be damned to hell. Our earthly lives will pass no matter what religion. There are 3 places we can go immediately: purgatory, heaven, or hell. Or the possible 4th would be nothing, our soul is expired and its completely all over.

    1. Joe 11:23 Or the possible 4th would be nothing, our soul is expired and its completely all over.

      Thanks for taking the time to express in some detail your views on Satan and the after life.

      We cannot conclude we know what will happen after we die. The only thing we have to go on is evidence. There is no evidence for purgatory, heaven or hell. From what we know, the only option is your 4th, “our soul is expired and its completely all over.” One part of this has no evidence, however, “our soul.” There is no evidence we have a “soul”. That is an invention of religion.

      Nevertheless, I think it is OK for people to believe there is a heaven, etc. as long as those folks don’t put their beliefs into laws that force others to comply.

    2. Catcher

      Joe; @ July 5, 2017 “Catholic Church reform”
      ” If you are a Jew or Muslim or other non-Christian religion and lead a good moral life, you will get to know Jesus during time in Purgatory before going to heaven.” Please provide source. specifically book, chapter, verse.

        1. Catcher

          @ 9;06; It’s in the book that makes everyone a Roman Catholic after death. “The Book of Magikmysteriums.”
          Follows in line with; “No salvation outside the Catholic Church”.
          One way or another, they’re gonna getcha. Another great Tradition. (Capital T).

    3. entech

      If you are a Jew or Muslim or other non Christian religion and lead a good moral life. By this you seem to imply that one must be religious to go to heaven. The Pope and others in the hierarchy have said that even non-believers can get to heaven if they “lead a good moral life”; what say you to this possibility?

  7. Joe

    There is salvation for every human being. It’s not about what you will be after death. There is only one heaven and one God. We will all be the same, after being purified and seeing the truth in purgatory, jews,catholics,Muslims,atheists,protestants will all be the same in heaven. Or we will all be the same in being completely extinguished:body and soul, or just body if you don’t believe we have a soul.

  8. Catcher

    Joe @ 1;43;
    (A) “We will all be the same, after being purified and seeing the truth in purgatory”
    (B) “Jews, catholics, muslims, atheists protestants will all be the same in heaven.”
    (C) ” Or we will all be the same in being completely extinguished; body and soul”
    (D) “or just body if you don’t believe we have a soul.”

    Please provide sources for each. A<B<C< or D
    Book, chapter, verse.
    Thanks

  9. Joe

    For A and B it is just my personal belief that Jesus’s mercy is so unfathomable that most souls regardless of their religion or non religion on earth (assuming they led a good moral life and don’t follow the evil one) will be taken to purgatory to suffer and be purified and to learn the truth(whatever that may be) before meeting God face to face in Heaven. Everyone’s time spent there could be different. And once everyone is cleansed there, will enter heaven. There will no longer be categories like Jews, protestants, Muslims, Catholics, atheists. Everyone will be together. For C and D it is just my personal belief that if there is no God, after death from Earth, our bodies and souls will just be completely extinguished and it will be the same for everyone: just the end:nothingness, or I guess it could just be the physical body that is completely extinguished if in fact we don’t have a soul.

    1. Joe 5:49 For A and B it is just my personal belief that Jesus’s mercy is so unfathomable…

      I have to give you high marks for this post. Others prefer to cite scripture. Catholics prefer to be told by authorities what scripture means. These methods are fraught with error because we don’t know who wrote it or why and it was written in other languages at various times. Thus, in my view, those who use scripture are, in the end, expressing their opinion of what their faith says or means. You simply state how you see it.

      1. Catcher

        Jon @ 7;09; And yet Joe constantly references purgatory. Not so simply stated as you says he sees it. A hybridized version of RCC, JW’s, and Mormon eschatology.

        Re. 5;49; “For A and B, it’s just my personal belief…” “For C and D, it’s just my personal belief…” I wish you and your personal beliefs well.

        1. Catcher 11:08 Jon @ 7;09; And yet Joe constantly references purgatory. Not so simply stated as you says he sees it. A hybridized version of RCC, JW’s, and Mormon eschatology.

          That you attribute Joe’s purgatory to a combination of RC, JW and Mormons is just speculation. All religious ideas are passed down from somewhere. We often don’t know where from. The Jewish/Christian god surely was passed down from previous “gods”, we know of many similar ones in earlier times. Thus Joe’s idea about purgatory came from a.) versions of Christianity, b.) version of religions other than Christianity or c.) he made them up from something else he heard because that appealed to him. He, himself, seems to choose c.). I like it that he recognizes there is an option there may be no god or afterlife though he does not choose that option. I can’t remember any other Christian here who admits that is an option. It’s probably a sin to even think such a thing.

          1. Juan Ruiz

            ” Joe’s purgatory ”

            The idea of both hell and purgatory implies that the soul is corporeal enough to experience pain. Similarly, the promise of virgins to suicide bombers suggests the soul can engage in sex.

            This is far different from the Greek view that the soul was merely a 2 dimensional shade.

          2. Juan 9:31 The idea of both hell and purgatory implies that the soul is corporeal enough to experience pain. Similarly, the promise of virgins to suicide bombers suggests the soul can engage in sex. This is far different from the Greek view that the soul was merely a 2 dimensional shade.

            That human beings spend part of their lives ruminating on whether there is a purgatory, heaven or hell and what the rules are for each means only one thing to me. Humans have always had plenty of time to ponder unimportant and fanciful ideas.

          3. Catcher

            Jon @ 8;29; “That you attribute Joe’s purgatory to a combination of RCC.. JW and Mormons is Just speculation”? No, most emphatically. His own words are the source. I should have more clearly separated the issue of purgatory with the remainder of Joe’s ABCD’s On the position of purgatory, you conflate RCC, JW’s, and Mormons, which I did not say, or at least it was not my intention.
            It would be more beneficial if Joe himself more clearly responded than you.
            Who knows the mind of Joe better than himself.

          4. Juan Ruiz

            “Humans have always had plenty of time to ponder unimportant and fanciful ideas.”

            I’d say it reflects man’s enormous terror of his mortality. He is special among all biota in that he lives on after death. As if that weren’t enough, some are comforted by the belief that they’ll meet up with their pets too.

      2. Catcher

        Jon @ 7;09; I do believe you missed my response from last night. In short, Joe’s A, B C D’s have been thunk (spelling intended) years before, which also includes combining them in interesting form, as mentioned in part with my last post. Nothing new here. He simply states earlier confusion. (as he sees it).

        1. entech

          And having caught him out in the error of his thinking you feel the need to offer clarification. (as you see it).
          For this we all offer you our thanks.

          {I would say that you also deserve a place in our thoughts and prayers, but perhaps the sarcasm would be palpable}

          1. Catcher

            @ 7;21; Who are you referring to? Jon or Joe? Joe has gone dark, and Jon misconstrued.
            I see no need for sarcasm if you are trying to get to the point. Joe will not provide sources beyond “as he sees it” Jon only muddies up the conversation. You perpetuate the muddiness.

          2. Catcher

            @ 7;21; This sort of thing has happened before. A writer, possibly Joe has made proposals. I ask for sources. he goes dark, and Jon jumps in, throws out something out of context with your help, and the writer escapes without providing sources, or reasons for his proposals. His internal contradictions are never answered.
            Poor scholarship, both presented, and encouraged by Jon. with your help. A far cry from the image you and Jon wish to project. What are you afraid of?

          3. entech

            @ 7:51 I thought the indentation and context were clear but here I am wrong again. Just a little (childish) jibe at your predilection for Catching Errors and Correcting them. As you have said you don’t usually enter the topic unless you think someone is quite wrong and you either offer or ask for clarification.

            Just a little off topic, apart from being a nonbeliever myself, most of what you have come up with over the years I find more logical and acceptable than most.

            Must confess to being a little bored today, holidays in a few days and getting the fidgets.

            @ 7:21 What am I afraid of, as the pundits say we have nothing to fear but fear itself, of equal peril is the danger of taking oneself too seriously. Or even worse taking me too seriously, as one searching for truth for more years than i like to admit to I find it amusing when people are so convinced that they have found it (or more often accepted what someone has told them is the truth).

Comments are closed.