Are Civil Rights Replacing Religion

This is to expand a little on no-church Christians. I said yesterday much of the church still focuses on judgment while much of society wants to leave judging others behind.

Europe now polls minority Christian. Some of Europe is welcoming refugees from the Middle East. The U. S. polls majority Christian. It is welcoming fewer from the Middle East.

The question raised by some is whether the moral values of most Europeans is now determined by views of humanism more than by the old spiritual and judgmental values. This humanism manifests itself as being tolerant of the diverse kinds of humans and beliefs.

This issue of humans rights spills over into all religions. It is argued other religions have larger civil rights problems than Christianity. This may be true, but wherever civil rights come up short in Christianity it is a problem that need to be corrected for its own good.

One of the interesting things about civil rights is that its meaning does not differ a great deal from one society to the next. It is not universal, of course, but it does not differ as much as doctrines among the great religions of the world.

To me, this gives hope that an more or less universal concept for advocating human rights will emerge. Because it will have a more uniform ideology, it will displace a large swath of religious doctrine world wide.

While this has not happened yet, I believe the seeds have been planted.

[An article discussing replacement of religion by civil rights can be linked in comments]

22 Responses

  1. Henry

    Jon: “I said yesterday much of the church still focuses on judgment while much of society wants to leave judging others behind.”

    Judgment is a double edged sword. We have an atheist who makes daily blog posts filled with judgment, now lecturing the Christian church on “judging”. He also calls Christians hypocrites. OK…….

    1. entech

      What some would correctly interpret what is said as commentary or even criticism others who themselves have a very judgmental nature view as judgment. Very few atheists that I know (actually none) would judge someone as needing to repent, very few Christians that I know would not. Many even say we are born guilty!

      1. Matt Noah

        Eventually, you will stop blogging. The Church will never stop preaching the Gospel message of love. Homosexual acts are sinful. Abortion is sinful. There is right and wrong. There is good and evil.

        Henry’s post hit the mark all too accurately. Ditto.

        By the way, neither Henry or I have to power to truly judge. True judgment comes once and is eternal. You can regard Henry as the canary in the coal mine, if that analogy means anything to you.

        1. entech

          Matt, you say you do not have the power to judge, why do you? What gives you the power to say that homosexual acts are sinful, or to say what is sin and what is not? If you have a gospel message of love why do you have so much hatred for atheists in general and Jon in particular. True love should be unconditional, your concept of love requires believing as you do.

          Love the analogy. The canaries were used to search for poison gas, Henry is always searching for something poisonous to his way of thinking. So enthusiastic that he probably has his own search engine, finds things most of us would not even think of looking for.

          1. Matt Noah

            The so-called “power” to say that homosexual acts or abortion are sinful comes from God. It is biblical. It is part of the teaching authority of the Church. I simply repeat what God has commanded and pray I don’t state it incorrectly.

            God is the judge. The Church can also be the judge if it exercises its authority to excommunicate. Since neither you or Jon are Catholic, you don’t fall under excommunication.

            I was taught by my parents and have taught my children right from wrong. I was punished for doing wrong. I discipline my children for doing wrong.

            You seem to think “unconditional love” means to accept anything another does. That is not love. It would be an act of hate on my part to accept and give approval of sin.

            A Christian loves unconditionally by always trying to bring people to Christ, obeying the laws of God, showing kindness, humility, patience, mercy, charity, etc.

            Henry is a good guy who is trying to evangelize everyone on this blog. I think he is directing his message to Jon and other like-minded individuals but we all hear it (when we bother to come here). Henry and I don’t see eye to eye on things but that is a denominational issue. I’m Catholic. I would guess Henry is an Evangelical.

            I detest atheism. I love all.

            Jon stated it clearly in his last post. He said he would stop blogging if all Christian churches stopped condemning abortions and homosexuals. His goal is against the will of God. Mine is for it. He wants all Christianity to repent of their convictions. I want Jon to repent of his ways.

          2. Henry

            Matt: ” I would guess Henry is an Evangelical.”

            Nope. I am evangelical as are all Christians, but not Evangelical.

          3. entech

            Matt 7:21
            Interesting interpretation of unconditional that you have. Accept, yes but it does not necessarily mean approve., neither does it mean condemn.

            You say a Christian loves unconditionally mercy, charity etc. Does your God love unconditionally, if not being condemned to hellfire and damnation for all eternity is conditional on accepting that Jesus died on the cross to save me is that not a huge condition. I was educated in a church school Bible study, daily communion and so on, after the regular teaching stopped I found I could not believe it. Is this sufficient to condemn me for eternity. If God loves all his creatures then why not an act of mercy and charity.

            You say :
            I detest atheism. I love all.
            That statement is not complete would you care to elaborate?

          4. Matt Noah

            I won’t get in to a parsing contest with you. “Accept”, “approve”, I think you know what was meant. Unconditional love does not mean to accept or approve. If you prefer approve, go with it.

            God loves unconditionally but once judgment is passed it is entirely possible that the person’s soul will spend an eternity in Hell. The person has chosen Hell when God offered an eternity in Heaven.

            I detest atheism because it is a separation of people from salvation.

            I love all people but it doesn’t mean I like even the majority of them. I desire all to know, love and serve God. I desire all live in Heaven for eternity.

          5. entech

            I guess in the end you have a total conviction of the existence of God and that the Bible is the word of God. I believe you would go further and say that you have knowledge of the existence of God. I was taught this in school but now I can no longer believe it. The more I try to understand how the idea of a God that has an unconditional love for hid creation could punish in such a terrible manner, eternal torment, the more confused I become and the more difficult it becomes to believe.

          6. Matt Noah

            Yes, I have a total conviction in the existence of God.

            Eternal damnation is the choice of the person.

            I believe God gave us a perfect existence but we (Adam, Eve) rejected it Adam and Eve were both real and symbolic. Adam and Eve knew God, met God and knew the rule – don’t eat from a certain tree. Their sin is symbolic of how nearly all of us would act.

            If God came and presented himself as some would wish, there would still be people who would reject Him. The doubting Thomas’ of the world would never be satisfied. Even Thomas would not believe until Jesus presented himself physically resurrected.

            Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

            Believe. Take the leap of faith! Take up the cross and reach out to Him who died for you and lives anew. Believe.

          7. Matt 3:39 If God came and presented himself as some would wish, there would still be people who would reject Him.

            The problem is the god that came and presented himself actually might not be the God of Abraham. In that case, the doubting Thomas’ would be correct. Many a debate has seen the atheist confront the Christian with this question, “What will we see when the divine returns? Describe it. How will we know it is the real thing?” Nary a Christian can tell us the answer.

            All the major Catholic Universities have professors of ancient history. Every one of them, I would guess, would agree the Jesus story in the Bible is a version of the genre of similar stories. The gods and some details change, but the death and rising again from the dead are common. I wish the frequency of such stories were also taught from the pulpit to the faithful. That way, the priests’ messages could add some important content.

          8. entech

            Jon, the idea that always comes to my mind about God or Jesus coming to visit is that there are so many different expectations from so many different denominations that many that call themselves Christians would reject as not living up to expectations.
            Ironically it is the atheist, one that has rejected Biblical descriptions and attributions, one that has no expectation that would be the most open. The freethinker is supposed to reject dogma, this is not talking about needing proof this talking about proof positive.
            I do not believe it will ever happen but I would respond positively to a choir of angels showing up at my local oncology department, dispensing cures and then going on to the next of the sick that could use help.

          9. entech 5:26 but I would respond positively to a choir of angels showing up at my local oncology department, dispensing cures and then going on to the next of the sick that could use help.

            As would I. I would even be happy to learn there were people who would never die and live eternally in splendor. Even if there was no hope I could. But, with no way to establish proof positive, it’s hard to take seriously.

        2. Matt 9:26 With entech’s help I am trying to understand you. The gospel message is love and you do not judge. But you judge homosexuality and abortion to be sin. I’ve never heard you express love for those who perform abortions.

          1. Henry

            Jon: “The gospel message is love and you do not judge.”

            Now we ironically get interpretation from an atheist on a book he declares a fraud.

            The Gospel message is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins, and otherwise we would be utterly damned by the law. This love is the good news that even today can be celebrated.

          2. Matt Noah

            The pro-life community has shown great love for abortionists and former abortionists. Dr. Bernard Nathanson is a classic example. Dr. Nathanson was the founder of NARAL and committed 60,000+ abortions.

            You can read about him here:

            Nathanson grew up Jewish and for more than ten years after he became pro-life he described himself as a “Jewish atheist”. In 1996 he converted to Catholicism through the efforts of the Rev. C. John McCloskey. In December 1996, Nathanson was baptized by John Cardinal O’Connor in a private Mass with a group of friends in New York’s St. Patrick’s Cathedral. He also received Confirmation and first Communion from the cardinal. He stated that “no religion matches the special role for forgiveness that is afforded by the Catholic Church” when asked why he converted to Roman Catholicism.

  2. No Church Cradle Catholic

    Oh Boys,

    I stop in here once in awhile just to see what Jon has to say. I shake my head and sigh sometimes because I judge he is out in left field again. Other times my eyes light up and I think yea- that makes sense. Either way I keep in mind that this is his blog. He says what he wants to say and I decide to visit or not. He judges Christians and their dogma. It is what he does. I agree that it would be nice to hear more about the Freethinker and less about what is wrong with Christians believing what they do but it is Jon’s blog not mine. I gotta say that I love the No Church Christian title he gave me though. I appreciate Jon putting it out there for me to use. I did take some liberties with it but I am going to run with it when I am quizzed about what Christmas mass I am going to!

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