Gay Rights Are Helping Abortion Rights.

The abortion rights case called Roe v Wade used privacy as the argument for abortion rights. This right to privacy has been a staple in arguments against sodomy laws and for early homosexual rights.

Privacy was an attractive concept to use in the early 1970’s.  Justice Blackmun liked his doctor friends and thought they should decide about abortions.

Justice Ginsburg has criticized the Roe decision that relied on privacy because it said nothing about a woman’s right to manage the timing of her children that she may have a life and career opportunities equal to that of a man. Equal rights, not privacy should have been used she believes.

In gay marriage privacy has been replaced with the equal opportunity argument. The more the equal opportunity argument has been used, the stronger the case for gay marriage has become.

The equal opportunity argument is beginning to be used in abortion rights. It cannot replace privacy too soon.

Anti abortion zealots have been successful in adding ridiculous costs and requirements making abortion more expensive and less available. These raise equal opportunity issues.

If Roe was overturned and law enforcement was given the responsibility to monitor all pregnant women to seen that their fetuses were adequately cared for inside women’s bodies, many women’s opportunities for work would be sacrificed. They would be even more at a disadvantage competing with men than they are now.

Use of the equal opportunity argument could become anti abortion zealots worst enemy.

[A link to this legal argument can be found in comments.]

45 Responses

    1. There must be some way to make pregnancy an equal burden on both women and men. Just paying child support is not enough. There should be a cash reward from the man to the woman (when they are not married) so she is left unharmed economically by the pregnancy.

      The effect of this would be more support from men for abortion rights.

      1. Jinx

        It isn’t just economics that hurt single Moms, it is the responsibility that falls 100% on the woman’s shoulders 24/7. Its bad enough to have an extremely fussy baby, no daycare will keep a baby like that, but if you are a single Mom there is no relief from the crying baby, autistic child, or normal active child. Can’t run a quick errand to the store unless child is with. No car so bringing child and laundry to the laundromat is almost impossible. Winter complicates any situation even more. These a just a few examples of how difficult it can be for single or divorced Moms in their daily lives.

        1. Chuck Z

          Here’s an idea. If you know that having a child is going to be too much of an “inconvenience” for you, be responsible and do what it takes to not become pregnant. Seems like an easier path than vacuuming your “inconvenience” out of your body in an effort to make YOUR OWN LIFE more bearable.

          1. Chuck Z. 11:22 Here’s an idea. If you know that having a child is going to be too much of an “inconvenience” for you, be responsible and do what it takes not to become pregnant.

            Here’s an idea. If you don’t like abortions, and women don’t seem to be behaving up to your standards, have men fined and jailed from having sex except to have children. That would prevent a lot of abortions.

            I’d suggest you think outside the box once in a while.

        2. entech

          Chuck be responsible and do what it takes to not become pregnant.

          First good thought I can remember from you Chuck. Does this mean you are an advocate of safe, effective contraception and proper education in it’s correct use?

          1. Jinx

            Sex education and access to contraceptives is a great approach.

            Teen girls dating men in their 20’s is a real problem in regards to unwanted pregnancies.

            Another problem is girls impregnated by their fathers, step fathers and sometimes brothers. Some fathers, etc. will arrange for them to have abortions, take them and sign the papers…..no matter how publicly Papa rants against abortions.

            Rape victims need this choice for their own mental health…..

            Every situation is different, each woman has different mental and physical health needs that are not met by blanket statements like no abortion for anyone.

            Some men don’t believe the woman/girl when they say no. Some just like to put another notch in their mental bedpost for another conquest.

            Chuckie, you have no idea how vulnerable girls and women are to sexual manipulation and predation.

          2. entech

            Chuck Z I take it from your silence that you agree?
            What is your preferred method of contraception?

            Is the responsibility for doing what it takes the woman’s? After all she is the one that becomes pregnant and many men would say just that.
            Or as it is the man that causes the pregnancy by implanting his seed responsible for making sure that it never reaches its objective?

            Perhaps you would endorse the advice of the religious doctor given to a young woman after refusing to give her “the pill”. When she asked what should I use he said two aspirins, before or after? instead!

  1. Greg

    If it feels good, do it- the atheist’s motto.
    Who cares if a baby’s killed- gotta look out for número uno.

    1. Jinx

      Its gregie, with out the other Chihuahua’s picking up for the rest of the pack who are all tuckered out from the last bout of yipping and yapping nonsense on the last topic!

      How about making a worthwhile suggest that will actually help this situation for Moms…….and you wonder why us Freethinkers don’t take you seriously.

  2. Zeb$matt

    Same song . What would happen if we had a new verse about atheist attitudes. Life is not about you or me.

      1. Jinx

        Yes Entech, life is about caring for others, not just about your family but the people in your community, your county, your state or province, country and last of all the world. We are our brother’s and sister’s keeper and what is good for them (gay, straight, trans, bi, black, white, yellow, brown, purple and green is good for all.

        Chihuahua’s, most women who choose abortion do not do so lightly and make sure they are never in that position again. Sometimes, a woman in certain circumstances cannot raise a child nor can she give it away. Adoption is also a heartrending decision and until you are in that woman’s position the righteous christian has no credibility, nor is it his business.

          1. Jinx

            Well brother chuckie, are you going to babysit that young sister’s child while she runs to buy diapers, or better yet get the diapers for her and then babysit so she can go to a movie or meet a friend? Lend her your car? Do laundry at your house? Babysit while she works?

            You just don’t understand and instead choose to be more concerned about an embryo(before 3 mo. in utero) than a living woman or her other children. Go yap somewhere else if you have no real solutions.

          2. Jinx 11:49 We acquired a wonderful granddaughter from a previous marriage when one of our children married. Her father hid his income, getting paid in cash, and paid almost nothing during any of the years until her 18th birthday when the responsibility ended.

          3. Henry

            Jon: “We acquired a wonderful granddaughter from a previous marriage when one of our children married. Her father hid his income, getting paid in cash, and paid almost nothing during any of the years until her 18th birthday when the responsibility ended.”

            There you go……justification to abort……”deadbeats”. Add that to “cannot raise a child” and “Adoption is a heartrending decision”. I am convinced with these persuasive arguments.

            I am glad the exception not to abort was made with your granddaughter.

          4. Henry 12:05 There you go……justification to abort……”deadbeats”.

            There you go, making a general argument out of a narrow one. Woman have many reasons to end a pregnancy. I did not say every time they know the father is a deadbeat they must abort.

            I was responding to the untrue allegation that fathers take 50% of the responsibility for financing and raising of children. Mostly, they don’t. There are exceptions, of course. We have a family friend who is raising by himself his child born to a girlfriend.

            The point being made today is that pregnancy most often leaves the mother in worse situation than is leaves the father. That is where the equal opportunity argument comes up. I am certain that if all fathers were held to a sacrifice equal to mothers we would see a decrease in unplanned pregnancies and an decrease in opposition to abortions.

            We do not have an equal sacrifice today. Instead, we hear a conventional wisdom argument that men are born horny and can’t help that. It is the exclusive responsibility of the woman to turn down the man or see to it precautions are taken. It’s time to put old fashioned ideas to rest.

          5. Henry

            Jon: “I did not say every time they know the father is a deadbeat they must abort.”

            I didn’t say that you said that.

            I said we now have “deadbeats” as another reason to abort along with many other reasons on the list. I am listening to the excuses to abort being presented. You helped me out on another one of them today. Just trying to keep up with the atheist continuing education being preached.

          6. Henry 5:57 I said we now have “deadbeats” as another reason to abort along with many other reasons on the list. I am listening to the excuses to abort being presented. You helped me out on another one of them today. Just trying to keep up with the atheist continuing education being preached.

            Here is the rule of human behavior since the beginning of time: If you penalize women for having babies, they will have fewer of them (more abortions). If you reward women for having babies they will have more of them (fewer abortions). The same rule applies to men pursuing women for sex.

            Other more lofty ideas are not reality.

          7. Henry

            Jon, I must say you are acquiring a very large war chest of reasons to abort. Let’s review:
            1. “Deadbeats”.
            2. “Cannot raise a child”.
            3. “Adoption is a heartrending decision”.
            4. “Penalize women”.

            Let’s keep this going.

          8. Henry 7:37 Let’s keep this going

            And you seem to have little interest in reducing abortions. Your theory that penalizing women for giving birth will result in more abortions, not fewer. Let’s keep this going.

          9. Henry

            That is your theory.

            So far we have four “solid” atheist reasons to abort. Thanks for your help.

  3. It’s been 42 years since Roe…and yet…this is nowhere near being a settled matter in the minds of our people.

    “Viability” was held to be at 30 weeks. Then 26. Then 24. And currently, 22. Science has sided with the “zealots” on this one and will continue to do so. And as it does, “freethinkers” will need to think-up new explanations and theories to accommodate for why people are not yet settled on this matter now a full generation after it all seemed ?so obvious?.

    But what you can’t escape, is that 42 years later the evidence is stronger than ever that a baby in the womb…is still a baby ( Right, Jon ?)! Our human-sense tells us so and is more convincing as time goes by.

    It’s been FORTY-TWO (42) years since the Supreme Court gave their opinion…and yet this is nowhere near a settled matter in the minds of our nation. Let’s keep that in mind the next time the court offers their next “obviously-correct” and “settled” decision.

    1. Jinx

      Julie, you also offer no realistic solutions either….you choose to live in your fantasy world of folk tales. Your so called science is called misinformed…..been cherry picked by biased research and medical opinions.

    1. Julius 12:09 There must be some way to make pregnancy an equal burden on both women and men.”
      It’s called…MARRIAGE!

      No sex outside of marriage is part of the solution. But marriage becoming less popular so, as a practical matter it’s no solution at all. The solution resides in the male. Stop men from having sex outside of marriage and most abortions will stop as well. Heavy fines, jail time, it would be easy to solve.

      But, the male is numero uno. We can’t put the burden of pregnancy on the male. Gosh no. It all needs to go on the lesser of the two, the female.

      1. Chuck Z

        Who here has said the male has no responsibility for the pregnancy, Jon? Again, you simply make crap up to fit your agenda. The man is as responsible as the woman is….but once that seed is planted he has ZERO rights as to whether the baby is aborted or not. You want to talk about equal responsibilities as long as it suits you.

        1. Chuck Z 5:36 Who here has said the male has no responsibility for the pregnancy, Jon? Again, you simply make crap up to fit your agenda. The man is as responsible as the woman is….but once that seed is planted he has ZERO rights as to whether the baby is aborted or not. You want to talk about equal responsibilities as long as it suits you.

          That’s interesting you say the man has zero rights about abortions. Yet, it is men who dominate the legislatures and clergy that are trying to take over that decision 100%. They are not, however, offering up compensation for the lost wages or compensation for 24/7 care of a baby. If they were required to make the same economic sacrifice as women, opposition to abortion would evaporate.

          That is why the equal opportunity argument will be a stronger one for abortion rights than has been the privacy argument. We can measure and put a price tag on equal opportunity.

          1. “We can measure and put a price tag on equal opportunity.”

            We can NOT measure and put a price tag on a human life. A baby waiting in the womb to be born doesn’t care what your financial situation is…he just wants to be born.

            An aborted baby pays the penalty…and will be afforded zero opportunity in order to purchase the right of “equal opportunity” for the selfish “adults” involved.

            As my grandmother used to say…”If you can’t do the time…don’t do the crime.” In other words…a “right” means nothing if there is no responsibility.

          2. Julius 6:41 We can NOT measure and put a price tag on a human life

            In all due respect, that is a ridiculous statement. Wolfy is right, we do it all the time. Over 30,000 people die in car wrecks every year. Its been going on now for almost a hundred years. Nearly all these lives could be saved. All that has to be done is make cars more crash proof, like race cars and spray airplanes, and cut all speed limits, highway and city, about in half.

            Why don’t we do this? Because the price of saving these lives is higher than the lives are worth.

            The same thing is true of health care. We could save thousands of lives by making sure people were under regular medical supervision. Hospitals could save lives with stricter protocols. The lives to be saved are just not worth the cost. I won’t even go into the wars we are fight.

            Julius, it’s time for you and other anti abortion zealots to stop worshipping fetuses.

          3. Wolfy32

            Sorry, not sure what world you live in, but sadly we do put a price tag on people on human life.

            The president gets Air force one, a tank proof limo, and all of his needs met for the rest of his life in exchange for being the Supposed leader of our nation.

            At the same time, kids in Cambodia, Singapore, and across the globe have price tags put on them daily based on what adults believe other adults will pay for those children in return for sexual favors from the children.

            Human life has a price tag. We don’t want to admit it. But some people are paid $10 / hour because mentally, emotionall, socially, and intelligently, that may be what they are happy with.

            Others get paid $30 / hour, and others get paid $200/ hour all based on their situations in life, who they know, their social connections, where and who they were born to, and their level of emotional maturity and intellectual education, along with political smarts.

            Everyone has a price tag associated with them. Those born to families incapable of supporting themselves let alone someone else that is completely dependent on them, or need medical care, etc, all have a cost and a price tag.

            I don’t believe for a second it was the result of catholicism to have more kids. It was the farms, mines, and industrial work that all needed child labor. Free labor to provide the family money. That was the use for children just 80 years ago during the American industrial revolution.

            There was a reason we as a nation enacted child labor laws… BECUASE we had CHILD labor! … strange how that works.

            Human life has price tags associated with it. Whether it’s the cost to be alive (cost of living), or the ability of a person to provide / support themselves and/or their family.

            Human life is full of price tags on each of us.. There’s a reason missionaries don’t go to insane asylums to convert the insane to Christ… The insane have no money or any means of getting money to give to charities.

            Children are recruited though, in the hopes they stay with the church to provide future proofing to the financial sustainability to the church.

            Funny, how everything has price tags… Whether it’s child trafficking, the concept of child labor on farms and in factories (still occurs in other countries), or how each person contributions to society determines how they should live…. e.g. economically poor or well off all the way to leader of our nation.

            children have price tags…

        2. Jinx

          Chuckie and julie, in my professional life I know an awful lot of men who legally fight to pay 0 child support. They run off, only work for pay under the table, won’t pay and complain to the Judge that $88/mo. is too much. Some of these men have kids with 2 or more women and may have married yet another woman and have kids with her to. What’s your realistic solution for this? Celibacy? Ha Ha Ha get real.

  4. Wolfy32

    If we lived in perfect world where everyone was the same off economically and no one ever was abusive, everyone married the perfect partner, and everyone respected each other. Then.. I would agree that we could completely eliminate the demand for abortion.

    Since we don’t live in a perfect world, we’ve got to deal with the hand we’re dealt not the imaginary place Christians think we live in. People need to decide what’s best for themselves. Do I agree with everyone’s choices? Do I think Abortions should continue, No, not at all. Do I think People should have abortion as an choice? Sadly yes.

    It’s too bad that a select few think they know what’s best for everyone on the planet. But they aren’t narcissistic nor arrogant. They are completely humble and are the only modest ones that could possibly know what’s best for everyone on the planet.

    I quite honestly feel that women should take ownership of the legal issues around abortion. Women that have had children and have had abortions and they get together and hash out what should be legal and illegal. Men have no clue nor are they remotely qualifies as a subject matter expert on pregnancies as to what to dictate to women.

    I don’t think it’s men’s business other than if they’re the father, then they should step in, state their desired outcome of a pregnancy and whatever is decided be ready to put their support, money, and time where their mouth is.

  5. Wolfy…what is your life worth? What is your…numerical value? Would your value change if you lived in another culture or society?

    Do you have family members who would put a price on your head? If they were tired of you…you were inconvenient to them…you cost them too much…you were a huge pain in their backside…could they then fork over the asking price to the person willing to do away with the inconvenience that is you? Using your own logic that you outlined above…explain to us how doing away with you, or even selling you to a jungle tribe wishing to enslave you for your expertise and service is, well…wrong!

    Again…what is your numerical value?

    1. Julius 8:28 Again…what is your numerical value?

      I used to do expert witness work in court addressing this very question. The answer used in court when there is a wrongful death and someone or some institution is being sued for the loss of a family member goes something like this: If the person had a job, multiply the annual salary times the years left of work remaining before retirement. Increase that by the average of inflation. Decrease that amount what is technically known as “present value”. If the person was a wife/husband who stayed home and raised children, etc, use the value it would cost to replace the work done there.

      The same principle was used to distribute the millions donated after 9/11 to those who lost family members. The families of doctors got more than the families of cab drivers.

      1. Jinx

        Jon, one also sees a price per human in our social service system…….minimal $$’s for 5 years and your off for life. What a horrible situation to put children in.

    2. Jinx

      The real world is all about numbers. For example: do I have enough $$ to buy food, pay rent, see a Doctor, buy clothing, pay a babysitter, and on and on for myself and a child or children? Welfare is so minimal and has a time limit so what is she to do then. Papa is a scumbag who wants nothing to do with the expected child and skips out. Mom is fleeing an abusive home or the child is a product of incest or rape. Now you have physical and mental trauma. What is a real solution and not some smarmy little statement?

    3. Wolfy32

      Unlike Christians I know my the world would go one without me. Whether I live or die is irrelevant to the world. While here I contribute, I pay my taxes, I work for a decent / comfortable wage, and donate what I have time and energy to donate / contribute to my community. If I weren’t here, someone else would have my job, and my income, they would be hopefully doing something similar.

      And as Jon said, I’ve heard similar stories. Whether it’s calculating life insurance, retirement, or wrongful death, the calculations are all similar. A child costs tens of thousands to raise, someone making minimum wage, can’t even come close to being able to meet their own needs let alone a child’s needs. If the child has health problems, mental issues, genetic disorders, or who knows what, and the mom makes minimum wage… And the dad no where to be seen.

      The choices aren’t easy. I don’t condone any choice. What i would like to see is the mom given sufficient money with education to become self sufficient to meet her own needs and the child’s needs. Sufficient day care, sufficient nanny services, and a decent paying job to go along with her education. That would take in the hundreds of thousands of dollars to accomplish. Just too much for any social services program to provide.

      So,we’re left wondering why people demand abortions…. When no one in our society is willing to admit how much energy, time, and ultimately money it takes to raise a child and make sure the mom’s needs are met to adequately have the necessary energy and care to properly care for the child. The cost would be astronomical per mom / child.

      1. Wanna B Sure

        Re; “Unlike Christians I know the world would go (one), on without me. – – Questions- – Is it; ( a);”Christians”, as in Christians in general, with an approprite coma after Christians, or is it (b.) “Unlike Christians I know,(coma) indicating specific Christians you know? There is a significant difference.- – Re. (a.); If that is what you mean, I strongly disagree. I know of no Christians that remotely believe the world not go on after they were gone from here. Literally all the believers I know believed/ knew “the world would go on/one without ” them. Their departed believing relatives are the evidence. – – Re. (b.): You may know some such people that believe the would would not go one/on without them, but I don’t. Are they a church group? I know of no such groups, other than the possible doomsday cult. If so, please name it. This would be interesting/ good to know. Even the Millennialists and their sub-divisions teach “left behind”, indicating something goin on after they have left in the so called rapture.
        Is it (a.) or (b.), or are you just rambling again?

      2. Wanna B Sure

        Oh, and I ignored the “my” in your first sentence, as it made no sense at all, and figured it was a simple error, or should it have been “the”? It’s so hard to tell what you intend. Of corse, in your ;”My world”, anything is possible. Squirrles may be pink and we’re the nuts.

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