When the Religious Right Entertains Us.

Recently, Cardinal Dolan of the New York diocese, a big honcho in the U. S. hierarchy, said the Catholic Church is being “out marketed” in gay marriage.  He said the Church is being “caricatured” as anti gay.

A person of Dolan’s stature should know it is not possible to tell a gay person, “Look, I have nothing but love for you.  The only difference in our thinking is that I think you should have fewer rights than I have.”

In societies based on class, where it is acceptable for one class to have more privilages than another, this logic may have majority appeal.  Today on the African continent discrimination against gays apparently is popular.  Apparently, discrimination of many kinds is popular.  But, it’s not that way in the U. S. or most of the western world.  Acting out predjudice eventually makes a group unpopular.

Cardinal Dolan and his companions seem to think they can continue to say two opposing things at the same time and no one will notice.  Instead, people notice.

The Christian right suffers from a permanent public relations handicap, a preoccupation with sin.  It should never have gone out of its way to label homosexuality as sin.  It should,  from day one, have said what Pope Francis has said, “Who am I to judge.”  Instead, the right has painted itself into a corner.

Watching Dolan twist in the wind, to see him talking in circles, is entertainment to some of us.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-raushenbush/cardinal-dolan-gay-marriage-_b_4364273.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years.
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115 Responses to When the Religious Right Entertains Us.

  1. kay syvrud says:

    I can be part of the entertainment from those who are Believers….not necessarily THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT

  2. Formerly Fargo Bob says:

    The entire concept of homosexuality being sinful is ridiculous. But this is why many people will make the nonsensical claim that being gay is somehow just a “lifestyle choice.” When pressed to explain exactly how people choose their sexual orientation, these folks can’t give anything approaching a coherent or logical response. They might mutter something about there not being a gay gene, but that’s as far as it goes. What’s being challenged here is their simplistic understanding of the Bible, and that’s what really scares them.

    • entech says:

      I always find the “choice” argument a little funny, you could respond by asking when they “chose” to be hetero. I especially like the macho types who say that lesbians just haven’t met the right man, could the same be said about them ? :roll:

      • Jinx says:

        Maybe I should ask my son why he didn’t choose hetero when he was around 8 years old………good point entech!

        • entech says:

          Choices can change though. When I was 8 years old I had a puppy and a male friend at school and a female friend down the road – my choice of lifelong companion was the puppy. By the time I was 18 I had forgotten all about the puppy that grew up and died and my entire choice centred on the girl down the road; whether it was the same one or one of her friends I can’t remember but at 18 ?

  3. Michael Ross says:

    We are all twisting in the wind, Jon. Your side has won.
    Genderqueer is the latest term (Forum Dec. 1). Total confusion, disorientation, and rejection in the traditional male/female dichotomy.

  4. kay syvrud says:

    I am totally disgusted with Areavoices..I am starting for the third time.
    I shall defend those who Jon throws into his melting pot of what he calls the RELIGIOUS RIGHT. I defend those who are Believers/ Born Again Christians.

    The Bible: Here are some compelling facts about the 66 books which were written over a period of 1500 years (the writers could not have possibly collaborated over such a time span and still their writing is consistent: All 66 books deal with major subjects : Creatoin, the Fall of man; and the redemption of God’s people in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament.
    You cannot explain away these compelling facts:
    1. 66 books of the Bible…written over 1500 years.
    2.These 66 books were written by 40 authors,….who all agree on major points listed above.
    3. These 66 books were written on three different continents: Asia, Africa and Europe
    4. Three languages are used: Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic

    Think about these realities: 66 books written over 1500 years; written by 40 authors; in 3 different languages, written on 3 different continents..and all of them agree on God as the Creator and Jesus as the Messiah who will ultimately redeem His own people the Israelites. And in the long period of time since Jesus came to
    Earth as Emmanuel (God With Us)…millions of people have become His disciples.
    An interesting testimony of Albert Einstein in the book THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF ALL TIME:
    “As as a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the
    Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene {Jesus the Christ} ………….No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Kay 1:30 Sorry about the posting difficulties.

      “written by 40 authors”

      It would be helpful if we knew who they were. It would be helpful, also, to know what they wrote. Since we know what the original authors wrote was copied countless time before the surviving copies were saved, it leaves room for speculation.

    • Michael Ross says:

      Kay, I had a blog for awhile. Hardly any response, got frustrated and deleted it. I understand you disgust I think the key is to get yourself elected mayor for four terms. Mac was about the one that occasionally commented. By the way Jon what has become of Mac?

      • entech says:

        Maybe people that liked endless Biblical excerpts found it easier just to read themselves. :lol:

        Must be hard to find a range of subjects when everything important happened in six days, six thousand years ago and the rest is all about:
        Then you come to a time (Genesis 6), when evil on the earth was so widespread; when sin became so popular, it became the common way of life. God was watching. He “was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart,” (Gen. 6:6)
        Look at it this way if he was that sorry why not “in the ending was the word”, let’s start again and better luck next time.

        Although if you concentrated on just this bit you could do well, kind of porn again :(
        Jude 1 6-9
        And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
        Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
        Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

        Come on Michael tell us more about this “strange flesh” and why the angels found it so fascinating? and why are the sons of man expected to be better behaved than the sons of god?

      • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

        Michael 2:01 I think Kay was frustrated with the software on AreaVoices. For some reason it does not handle her posting very well.

        Mac posted here a couple of weeks ago. He has suspended posting here and his own blog for the time being. He does other writing, is a successful businessman and is busy with all of that.

      • Avatar of realist realist says:

        What? Nobody commented on your blog? I think a little introspection is in order instead of snarky comments about the success of others. And here I thought you were a Christian….

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Kay 1:30 “You cannot explain away these compelling facts..66 books, 1500 years..40 authors..all agree on God as the creator and Jesus as the Messiah.”

      There are, of course, other facts to consider. One is that at the time Jesus was supposed to have actually lived and preached, the majority of Jews did not believe he was the Messiah. It was only years later that big numbers of non Jews came to believe this. Another is that one of the really important things the Messiah was supposed to achieve, he did not. This was getting the Jews free of the Romans.

      I remember you wrote a nice blog or two about President John Adams. He was the one who said, “Facts are stubborn things.” We each have some stubborn ones. And, we’re both probably a little stubborn ourselves. :)

    • Jinx says:

      Groupthink doth reach back into antiquity!

    • noblindersonme says:

      Kay- your defense of the ‘religious right’ or your implication that Jon lazily uses that term , just proves Jon’s last paragraph. The ‘right ‘ does indeed dwell far too much on that aspect – focusing and framing their narratives on ‘sin’ and why everything the ‘left’ engages in must be sinfull.
      The ‘compelling ‘ facts you base your narrow views on may be true , but hardly ever show the whole picture. . 66 books …. , Who wrote them , and how many books (166?) were wrote and then tossed out because they didn’t conform to the beliefs at the time! Hardly the ‘word’ of GOD if HIS words conflicted with the extremist view prevalent then . And if it wasn’t like that then provide better documentation of those times! ( as an example, books about Mary Magdalene (sp) were written but were cast away because that version of history didn’t jive with the ‘prudish’ view ‘ of those ‘deciders’!)
      Secondly , Islam acknowledges much of the history you glorify and the greatness of Jesus but bases it’s religion on events on what happenned after Christ lived. Yet Islam is demonized by the ‘right’.
      Lastly -your last paragraph which states ‘No one can read the Bible ( gospels) without feeling the luminous presence of Jesus etc.. his personality pulsates in every word! yeah Kay that is wonderful , BUT Kay! the religious middle or ‘religious left’ also views the gospels of Christ in that manner . It is NOT a view confined ‘to only your side!’
      It is why I go to church today , and I ,as a ‘liberal dem’ , feel comfortable in those pews focusing on Jesus and the love he preached! I think the ‘right ‘ as Jon said ,focuses far more on the ‘sins ‘ of the sinners around them!
      (As proof of what I argued ,note how the POPE , for heavens sakes , is being attacked today by the ‘right!” Francis’s leadership has fallen back the basis of what the church should be- JESUS’s teachings and the ‘right’ is going “What’s up with that!!)

  5. RCCforLife says:

    Advent the time of preparation for one to call to mind the hope that Jesus Christ offers to anyone who chooses to freely believe. Jesus never forced anyone to believe the message he proclaimed, nor live the life he freely offered early Christians. A life of true hope and authentic freedom offered by the God who is absolute Goodness.

    Christmas the time when we celebrate not a birthday, rather a remembrance of the Incarnation of Jesus, who while remaining divine became human, dwelling amongst humanity itself. This God-man who has inspired more hope and purpose for millions of people, more than any other god. What God other than the Christian God chose to lower Himself becoming human and yet remaining divine. What God other than the God of Christianity revealed such faithfulness and love, yet appropriately applies justice–mercy or punishment for humanity? What other God respects human freedom so much that He would personally bless men and women with the freedom to reject Him who has sacrificed his very life for the sake of humanity that all might one day enter into eternal life. What a beautiful message of hope that Jesus Christ freely extends for all of humanity to freely accept or reject. I hope you can find peace with recognizing the beauty and hope that Christianity offers this Advent and Christmas Season! Blessings and peace to you and your families!

  6. eric haugen says:

    “The Christian right suffers from a permanent public relations handicap, a preoccupation with sin.” From the standpoint of a Jesus follower this statement does not make a lot of sense. Sin is what separates us from God. Sin is why Jesus came to earth. Sin is why the cross was necessary. Anything that makes the cross irrelevant is blasphemous and that is why we are preoccupied with sin. Many would like to simply ignore sin. People would like sin to go away so that we can live life and do exactly as we please. We would like to be in control and not give God control. AS such Christians are obviously preoccupied with sin because accepting that we have to answer to God is a part of the equation. The church should not change its definition of sin based upon public relations and popularity campaigns.

    In regards to the comments regarding homosexuality being a choice vs genetic I do have some contrary experiences. IN past 10 years or so I have had the opportunity to speak to many in the gay/lesbian community. I have spoken to three people (not many obviously) who had previously been involved in homosexual lifestyle and subsequently developed heterosexual attractions. Two are now happily married and have several children. They tell me they have absolutely no homosexual tendencies remaining. There is some data in the literature that does in fact point to some environmental influences that can result in the “choice” of homosexuality. However, the majority of folks I have spoken do not fall into this category. I believe quite strongly that it is who they are. That is how they were made. There has been no gene found but something as complex as this will not have a single gene determining this choice. It is much more complex than that and again I would have to say that they did not “chose” the lifestyle but that in fact is who they are.

    The problem I have is that somehow this lifestyle has been seen as victim in the sexual morality debate. I believe the numbers indicate that there are significantly more heterosexual singles in this country who chose not to get married (than there are homosexuals). There is a sexual morality outlined for everyone who is single. Outside of biblical marriage we are all called to sexual purity. This influences all believers, not just homosexuals. The problem is that there are state and government benefits tied to the definition of biblical marriage and in that sense it is not right to deny others their rights to these benefits. As a nation we are obligated not to discriminate but it does not mean we change biblical truth.

    • entech says:

      Question: What is Sin?
      Sin: What is Sin and What Does the Bible Say About Sin?
      For such a small word, a lot is packed into the meaning of sin. The Bible describes sin as the breaking, or transgression, of God’s law (1 John 3:4). It is also defined as disobedience or rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 9:7), as well as independence from God. The original translation means “to miss the mark” of God’s holy standard of righteousness.
      http://christianity.about.com/od/glossary/f/whatissin.htm

      Hard to find a perfect definition, this should be near enough.
      For once we agree entirely when you say, “Sin is what separates us from God.” It is certainly the concept of sin that separates most non-believers (and perhaps many other-believers) from your version of god. So many of the funny little laws make it all so difficult – most of the top ten seem pretty obvious and logical, no killing is a good one, the adultery and coveting and stealing and telling tales would be sensible regulations to ensure a harmonious village life in ancient tribal eras, and a pretty good basis today for a civil society but some of the total nonsense spoils everything – mixed fabrics being the classic.
      It does seem strange that an entity which actually turns out to be a heavy duty control freak should give his controlees the power to reject his controlling. The only answer to me would be that he is looking for a reason to dish out punishment.

      Paragraph 2 seems reasonable, like most people I know several people with life-partners of the same sex, never thought to ask if and when they chose to be ‘that way’, I have had conversations about how they met and that sought of thing – anything more personal should be volunteered or ignored.

      There is an element of being the victim in most societies, just being seen as an outcast, as bent or not straight like the rest of us is a kind of persecution, discrimination does make them victims , victims of other peoples biases and prejudices. Just as in other circumstances different people can be in a similar situation, blacks in America, blacks in the old South Africa, Chinese in Indonesia and Christians in Muslim countries to name a few.

      You end with Biblical truth, taking Bible as a generic term for the sacred writings of a religious group, which one is true and in what way does it falsify the others.

      • StanB says:

        Mixed fabric was a law to help the Jews keep thier identity when living among none believers. The none believers at that time DID mix the material that their clothes was made of. Since the general physical appearances of all the people living in the area was the same, mixed fabrics was a ready indicator of belief. It is actually explained in the Bible in the concerning area, but why bother looking it up when you can just point and laugh.

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Stan 1:58 Do it say in the Bible those who wear mixed fabrics are sinners, or, wearing mixed fabrics is a sin? I thought it was the latter.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Jon: For the definitive answer to the question of “mixed fabrics”, you need to ask an observant fundamentalist, (Hasidic)? Jew, living under the Old Covenant, Torah, and Talmud. And for the answer to the other 613 “laws” included in ritual, dietary, civil/theocratic.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Wanna 2:48 “For a definitive answer … you need to ask an observant…”

            I tend to forget that basic principle of abitrariness. The Bible is the “truth”. It was “written by God.” But, to follow its teachings, first decide what you want it to mean. Then find a sect that sees it as you see it.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            You forget much. We’ve been though this before. You are not looking for answers, rather excuses for your agenda.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Wanna 3:20 That’s what is great about Christianity. Take what you believe, what makes you feel good about yourself, pick a sect that agrees with you and, HALLELUJAH, you’re glory bound.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Jon: you asked the question in your 2:24. I told you who to ask. It’s not that complicated. Jah.

          • StanB says:

            Entech 6:09

        • entech says:

          Stan, If you look again eric was talking about sin and separation from God. I was merely pointing out that while many things described as sin were on a solid and sensible basis there were a lot that were not really relevant to life beyond the immediate circumstances and conditions several thousand years ago. The mixed fabric thing was just a minor example, one often quoted for its humorous value, it is probable that most fabrics in use today have at least some mix of synthetics, even if just to help hold the shape.
          Would you prefer a rant about the death penalty appearing so often ?

          It always comes back to picking and choosing, as Jon says find a definition that suits your purpose and a group that uses that definition.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      eric 4:39 As entech pointed out, there is no universal definition of sin. One can see the authors of the Bible wanted to control people. They stumbled on “sin” as a useful tool. By making up the concept of “sin” and then making up a concept of who decides “sin”, they put themselves in the driver’s seat. The crowning genius was forgiving sin if you “follow me” or “believe in me.”

      Since the Bible, a gazillion people have made up their own definition of sin. They are able to demonize people by convincing some of the public to believe, “Those people over there, they are different, they are sinners.”

      Other religions and other gods do have use the concept of sin to control people. It is the unhealthy characteristic of Christianity.

    • noblindersonme says:

      Thank you Mr Haugen for your insight and reasoned debate , Your experience on the matter certainly gives credence to your view.
      My only criticism of your words is that ‘Jon’s comments were concentrated on the words ‘preoccupation’. I still agree with him. And I agree with you , ‘the church should not change it’s view of sin, the church’s teachings have always based part of it’s foundation on that, but I believe what too often is neglected in today’s politicized debate is love and tolerance.
      as an example I will use the behavior of the right ‘s hero Limbaugh , who so typically espoused the right’s view of Christain charity during the Haitian earthquake . When asked to part with some of his mega bucks to help the suffering victims , Rush replied (paraphrasing)’ Hell no! my taxes are too much already ,let them use that!’ . As I said , we can be so preoccupied with the sins of others , we can then forget to be saints ourselves!

  7. H.P.Drifter says:

    Jon Entech

    I can visualize it right now Dolan twisting the night away at the Back Door Club In New York. When asked, he says “The church was out marketed” right, when has the church ever spent any money on marketing. On self promotion billions of other peoples money (“like the government stealing money from Christ”) but marketing I don’t think so. Never seen a Bill Board that said that your “Religion after Breakfast is bad for your Health” or ” Religion it’s now in a New Stove Top Container just heat it up”

    I can remember my inductive and deductive logic professor giving a series of lectures on “Beware of prevarication used in manipulating statistics” Later there was a book written “Lying with statistics”
    I am sure this is required reading by all clergy everywhere.

    The closet’s are big and deep in the Vatican, every one needs to get out and get into the church, overt deception and prevarication is no longer acceptable. At least the new pope raised the age of consensual sex from age 12 to 18 in the Vatican State as of July of this year. With all the problems of pedophiles in the church, what was the prior papal administrations thinking?

    H.P.D

    • Jinx says:

      The church was “outmarketed”!!! What an arrogant and absurd statement. I observe no mention of the institutions long standing culture of pedophilia and its lack of will to do anything about it until the law suits hit their pocket. In Minnesota, the statute of limitations on when victims can sue organizations (churches, clubs, etc.) has been lifted for 3 years. Adults who were molested years ago can now sue the church and I hope every last victim does, maybe the church will finally take notice of the grevious damage it has done………but I doubt it.

  8. Simple says:

    The pre-occupation with sin seems to be mainly about sexual sin. Not too much about greed while the church sits on piles of money and they shuffle money around to avoid paying the victims of pedophile priests.

    They sit and complain how gay marriage and helping to pay for someone’s contraceptives violates their conscience. They fire teachers at their schools for being homosexual or unwed mothers. Yet the only thing that seems to bother them about the pedophile priest scandal is that the world found out about it. They continue to try and sweep this under the rug and hide assets to avoid paying victims.

    These priests were sent to new congregations when their crimes were uncovered. I assume there was much prayer involved. Wouldn’t god have a strong interest in helping his own representatives overcome their attractions to children? Yet the abuse continued. This to me is more evidence that god does not exist.

    If you want to tell the rest of the world to live, you better have your own act together or you have no credibility. What do we expect out of an institution that is run by a bunch of old men who took a sacred vow that said that they would remain celibate, including no self pleasure?

    • entech says:

      Yes, Mathew said suffer the little children not make the little children suffer.

    • Avatar of realist realist says:

      I have always thought they should be jumping on gluttony. After all, there are so many who would qualify among the ranks of the bishops and cardinals, even popes themselves. It is a “deadly” sin, but in today’s medical context, that interpretation might have been prescient. Just think how many die from it. Where are the pro-lifers on this one?

  9. H.P.Drifter says:

    There is an old Jewish Proverb where “its okay to steal from the family as long as you can get around ever body and completely get away with it as long as no one knows” It seems this is what the church has been doing for the last two thousand years. We have a rule in our house no breaking bread with lawyers at home. As things are shaping up I might have to revise the rule to include the Catholic Clergy.

    H.P.D.

  10. Wolfy32 says:

    “The original translation means “to miss the mark” of God’s holy standard of righteousness.” I’ve heard this definition many times in evangelical crusades, in christian concerts, etc. “That Christ isn’t a crutch, for I can’t even limp into heaven without him, he’s a stretcher, the only way I’m good enough to get into heaven is if Christ carries me.”

    So, we as a creation have the freedom to choose our God, yet, if we choose the wrong one we aren’t allowed into heaven, even if the wrong one is all some knew their entire life, so they were sentenced to hell by not having had a choice…. Millions of human souls lost forever, because they were born in the wrong continent. . .

    How is that choice? That’s virtually no different than saying I’ll beat you and kill you if you leave me. Except in this case, hell is portrayed as much more than a beating… It’s portrayed as a police of extreme torture designed for the torture of fallen angels, not humans, yet, it’s where humans go if we choose the wrong God. How many haven’t had a choice though. Just as choosing ones sexuality may not be a choice, choosing one’s God for most likely a majority of humanity wasn’t a choice either.

    All the native americans in North America. All the island communities that would have been secluded, and all of humanity that died before Christ. Most likely the numbers, I would guess would represent 50-80% of humanity was sentenced to hell because it wasn’t around in an era where Christ saved them or Christianity didn’t exist.

    Because we’re created and born evil, we need a savior… I’m not saying anyone is great in terms of moral, and societal contributions. Most people have a good and a dark side.. That’s life as a human… However, to say we’re evil and worthless, in reality demeans the creator that created us… How evil is the creator to create a species that’s evil and worthless and then expect them to spend their lives in supplication asking forgivness for existing?

    • Avatar of realist realist says:

      See what happens when you try to take what the church tells people literally? You end up in metaphorical traps and rhetorical blind alleys.

      • Wolfy32 says:

        It’s this thinking that got me trapped in a “what the hell?” are all evangelicals just chasing the next emotional high?? I seriously believe many of them are bi-polar, and are using religion as their fix.

        Condemning themselves as worthless, and weeping at how bad of people they are in one instant then in the next waiving hands and cheerfully shouting and praising God.

        Granted with bi-polar the swings usually are days and/or weeks at a time, but serioulsy, I think they’re a bunch of emotion junkies…. Seeking the next emotional low and high.

        • Simple says:

          Well said. I spent some time in pentecostalism and you sum it up well. It cannot be emotionally healthy to be all happy-happy-joy-joy-joy one minute and bawling your eyes out the next. There also may be a crash when you come down off the emotional high. It was a very dark time for me.

    • entech says:

      Wolfy, you are starting to sound as if you are making a case for non-existence. At least the non-existence of all loving and all benevolence.

      • Wolfy32 says:

        More of a case for the possibility that if there’s a God of the universe(s), it probably can’t fit into a series of (biblical) books. It probably can’t fit into the Christian, islam, hindu, Catholic, Tao, or any of the other religious views humanity has devised either. A true God that big and magnificent, couldn’t fit in something that is explainable in human words.

        Which is the conundrum religion creates, and instead of trying to understand that, formal religious organizations give up and just do their best to simply cater to their sponsors…. Capitalism at it’s best.

    • eric haugen says:

      There are many people who die and have never heard the Gospel or have never been given the opportunity to make a choice. There is no reason to think that God in his righteousness cannot allow them into heaven based upon their character and their heart. Children that are young will not be held accountable for actions/decisions they have not had the opportunity to make (age of accountability is the term that some use). I don’t think there is any major theological issues with those points. In regards to the creator being implicated, I do not think that is the correct logic. God is not surprised by our sin. He had his plan of redemption before he created us (Jesus). He created us in his image and we were not made as robots. We have free will to chose our way of life (free will is a debate that could go on forever). Because we have these choices he knew he also had to make a way for us to be redeemed. We then also have to make a choice to believe and follow him. Suffering and pain do not logically mean that God is absent. We have the opportunity to spend life in eternity without pain and suffering. A few tough years on earth (with a few glimpses of his glory) is not so bad in the mean time. There are some excellent sources discussing pain and suffering (CS Lewis, Tim Keller). I would encourage you to look into them.

      • entech says:

        God is not surprised by our sin. He had his plan of redemption before he created us

        This is an amazing insight into the mind of God. Into the mind of an entity that would deliberately create something flawed so that he could correct it, mysterious ways indeed.

      • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

        eric 2:48 “In regard to the creator being implicated, I do not think that this is the correct logic.”

        First we learn in Sunday school that God is all powerful and loves us. Then we experience in life terrible people, tragic events and unthinkable sadness for some. But from the pulpit we learn these two opposing ideas are not in opposition at all. There is an escape door. It is that God gave us free will to sin but we would be judged, etc etc. The faith has more secret escape doors than Houdini. Since we’ve never seen nor heard God we can make up things at will.

        Another way to approach this is to assume God is not all powerful and does not love us–really dislikes us. Bad things happen because God could not stop them even if he wanted to, and, he really doesn’t want to anyway. Again, we’ve not seen nor heard from God about all this.

        Now, I don’t actually think there is a god, but if I did, I could make things up about the god with the best of them.

        • eric haugen says:

          the bible makes it very clear that we will experience hardship and suffering in this world. The bible also makes it very clear that God loves us. John 3:16 is the classic passage in that regard. It is a dichotomy that many people wrestle with but it is absolutely not “made up” nor is it some magic escape door. If a person believes that the bible is the inspired word of God your conclusion that we have not heard from him is wrong as well. You must recognize the bias that your statements come from (and certainly you are not trying to hide it so in that light your comments can be understood). However, to make the claim that a believer is simply making this up or a believer can come to their own conclusions is simply wrong.

          I have seen many posts in the past month that imply that since there is suffering there cannot be a God. This is where the preaching of the Joel Osteen’s and the prosperity gospels really create confusion and why that entire line of thought is simply wrong/blasphemous. The simple analogy is seen in parenting (but this really dumbs it down). Is it the job of parents to make sure that their kids experience no hardship in life? Is it best to give kids everything they want? How do the trust fund babies function in life? To think that God should make life simple and perfect for everyone is not necessarily a mandate that many people believe in. It certainly does not prove his absence. The bible does not tell us exactly why suffering has to occur but when we look at the cross we know it is not because he does not love us.

          • entech says:

            Is the any definitive way to demonstrate that the Bible is actually the true and inspired word of God. One condition demonstrate the existence of God first. I cannot demonstrate either way, I simply do not believe what you say and would like it to be proven.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            eric 4:08 “If a person believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God you conclusion that we have not heard from him is wrong as well.”

            I was referring to the standard of evidence both believers and non believers use in everyday life. That it, they require confirmation by third parties without vested interests. There have not been encounters with the devine that can be confirmed by third parties.

            Both groups are skeptical of claims made by politicians and advertisers. The two groups differ, however, when it comes to religion. Believers drop the requirements they require in judging politicians and advertisers. They adopt circular reasoning, which is implied in your post, “What I say is true because I say it is true.” That is, the Bible is the word of God because it says it is.

            If one applies critical thinking to the Bible, it’s inescapible to conclude an all powerful God who loves us could and would eliminate suffering. The authors, however, came up with a scheme. “Let’s tell people things will be better in the afterlife if the give us their alligiance and their money. We don’t have to prove it. No one hears back from the dead.”

      • Wolfy32 says:

        Eric, I won’t debate free will, because, as you said, it’s an eternal debate better debated when we have the time. :)

        Pain and suffering is another subject that could be argued for a long time. Many books have been written on it, and the end of many of them is simply, pain and suffering happens, find ways to cope and deal with it. It’s a part of life, no one is exempt.

        I will question you’re initial statement, because not many Christians have expressed your view (at least not in my pentacostal raising and certainly not on this board.)

        “There are many people who die and have never heard the Gospel or have never been given the opportunity to make a choice. There is no reason to think that God in his righteousness cannot allow them into heaven based upon their character and their heart.”

        The bible makes it clear this statement is not possible.

        ‘For I am the truth, the light, and the way, no one comes to the father but through me, Jesus Christ, your savior.’

        “For I sent my son into the world, not that it would be condemned, but that it might be saved through him.”

        For God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should have everlasting life.

        Those make it impossible for anyone that hasn’t accepted Christ to be saved. There’s many other verses. I’ve heard that all children get out of jail free card. Yet, I’m curious, wouldn’t God know whether they choose christ or not, to decide whether to save them or not?

        I had been taught my whole life that these verses were the core, there were no answers outside of these. Informal pentacostels floated the idea / rumor, that while Christ was dead for his 3 days, that he used the time to go to hell and free everyone that had died prior to knowing about him — in essence everyone was in hell before Christ existed, then used the remaining time he had in those three days to go to North america and all the parts of the world to give all societies a chance to know him and accept or reject him.

        Then on the third day he returned to his body after a very busy traveling agenda. It was the best answer experts could come up with to give the dead and foreign communities a chance at salvation…. Since there was no other option… and they couldn’t believe in a God that didn’t give people a choice… yet, they indicated a belief in that, by stating everyone before Christ went to hell…

  11. kay syvrud says:

    I am pretty much done with Areavoices too..(reply to Michael Ross). As far as Bible authors go, Jon, you know how to look things up just like I do. I think we should be really joyful that WE CAN DO THAT at our ages: many of our generation are in nursing homes, assisted living or are in graveyards. So I am grateful each day that I can still read and write. I keep busy NOW with writing my own column for our hometown newspaper. It is fun and I can still ber BUFFALOGAL..still living high atop the BUFFALO BLUFF that over looks the Buffalo River Valley below us..and if I ever get bored I can watch the traffic go by on Highway 10 about a mile away but our elevation leads to watching a lot of things happening outdoors.
    I also must keep a promise to write a family history story about one incident that is so uncommon–from pioneer settlement days. Each family has its own history..and all of them are fascinating and full of incidents we could never make up!!!
    My favorite published family story is still THOSE DAYS by ND native Richard Critchfield.

  12. H.P.Drifter says:

    Of course I could now change the house rules once again and serve swill to the lawyers and the clergy and be able to serve everybody. More in line with our policy of treating everyone equally, similar to but not quite the same as christian charity.

    Then again I would have to put the lawyers and clergy on the enclosed back porch to eat with Teddy. Teddy will eats just about anything (battle field training) keeps the soldiers from carry battle field rations for Teddy as well, he does weigh around one hundred fifty pound (75 kilos, more or less)

    Maybe two clergy and two lawyers could help keep down Teddy’s food bill this winter. Hmm I am going have to give this serious consideration, maybe lawyers and clergy from out of state. Entech do you know any lawyers or clergy worthy of a free meal on a trip to the U.S.? Just give me a call we will be home all day.

    H.P.D

  13. CODY says:

    THIS GUY PROCLAIMS FREE THINKING, THEN PUTS LABELS ON EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING. IF YOU HAVE A FREE THOUGHT THAT GOES AGAINST JON LINDGREN, THEN LET THE “FREE THINKERS” FURY BE LEASHED ON YOU… A SPADE IS A SPADE, AND JON IS A HYPOCRYTE.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      CODY 3:11 Thanks for the first time comment–all comments are welcome here.

      “..AND JON IS A HYPOCRYTE.”

      Some believe it is helps their case to shoot the messenger. I’d suggest a more powerful line of attack is to challenge the message.

      • Jinx says:

        Jon, your just fine and don’t change a thing. After all, these people don’t have to read and post on YOUR blog. They do have a choice here!

      • cody says:

        SO SHOOTING RELIGION IS OK FOR YOU TO DO? I’D SUGGEST fREE THINK YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR mesASSage. BANG!
        BTW,
        ITS NOT MY FIRST TIME…

    • Avatar of realist realist says:

      If you think in capital letters like you write, your brain must get awfully crowded.

      • cody says:

        IF CAPS OFFEND YOU, STOP BEING A REALIST. BECAUSE CAPS A FOR REAL, REALIST.

        • entech says:

          The convention on the internet are that all caps is the same as shouting, usually a last resort for someone who does not make their case or does not really have a case anyway.

    • Wolfy32 says:

      The truth is everyone is hypocritical… You, Jon, me, pretty much everyone on this planet….

      We all sometimes be someone or act a certain way at times that aren’t who we are or aren’t what we stand for.. I’m not happy with Satan’s ability to use the church to deceive everyone into believing prejudiced and intollerant beliefs, yet, I’ll still attend a church service at times and guard myself from the evil being preached.

      We all do things that aren’t exactly what we believe or think. Being a little hypocritical is o.k.
      ;-)

      • cody says:

        be happy with your hypocrisy. im not.

        • entech says:

          The implication of what you say here is that you are a hypocrite and are not happy with the fact. But you very generously give us license to happy in our hypocracy.

          You’re NOT a hypocrite? I bet Ray comfort could prove you wrong :roll:

  14. H.P.Drifter says:

    Jon

    You know this is the Christian way when you try to reason with them and you drive your point home with out getting mad and maybe injecting a little humor.

    They go Ballistic, its a fact born again Christian’s have smaller brains that rest of us. If any of you doubt this look it up. What is the saying, fools rush in where wise men dare to go. Describes the Christian Religion to a tee.

    The leap of faith it that it takes to believe in Christianity divides those of us that don’t care to buy into fairy tales and those that do. Hey you can believe in anything want as long as you try not to push your agenda on anybody else, set up an organization of hypocrites or people who hurt small children.

    Which pretty describes what is happening in the Christian faith as we speak.

    If you don’t agree with us you better think hard about what you are doing (if you can think) Otherwise mind your business, and we will try to mind ours.

    This goes for the well meaning Christians out there as well, you are helping to enable these crazy people further their own agenda.

    And damage the lives of millions with the prophecy of using pseudo intellectual poison.

    H.D.P.

    • Michael Ross says:

      ‘You know this is the Christian way when you try to reason with them and you drive your point home with out getting mad and maybe injecting a little humor.

      They go Ballistic”

      We’ve lost the battle and we are frustrated. Please be understanding H.P.

      • Wanna B Sure says:

        Say what?

      • H.P.Drifter says:

        Michael

        There is nothing wrong with you, your not a sinner, because sinner is somebody else’s label of who you are.

        There is nothing you have to atone for, the bible has given you some pretty good advice on how to keep your house (mental condition) in order.

        The bibles relevance stops with the end of that good advice. Take the good advice and move on, there is a wonderful world of the mind out there to explore.

        Learn about different philosophies and see how they function. Guilt is a man made concept to control peoples minds, you need not have any of that.

        A serious sincere person like you can find happiness without the dogma of the church hanging over your head.

        You are not going to start acting weird, you have a good moral foundation and be thankful for that. There is a whole of thoughts out there to discover, just take the moral high road and you have nothing to worry about.

        H.P.D.

      • Wanna B Sure says:

        Michael: sounds like he is trying to convert you. About as subtle as boiled cabbage in a small room. And atheists claim they don’t proselytize.

    • Wolfy32 says:

      This goes along with my post… Many christians use christianity for their emotional high… Their next mental fix… Evangelical christians use sin and satan to make people feel worthless and horrible and convicted of crimes of existence. Then, preach how everyone can be saved, and suddenly going from weeping to being happy and joyful and speaking in toungues…

      When I started to see this for myself I saw emotional manipulation…. Manipulating people into feeling what the preacher wanted people to feel.. And then leave them with a high when they go home… Suddenly they are not much different than heroine addicts or ecstasy addicts…

      • eric haugen says:

        yes, I have heard some terrible things lately. I have heard about the need to be a better dad. I have heard that I should strive to be a better husband. I have been urged to pursue social justice. I have heard about the devastation of poverty, homelessness etc and the biblical mandate to tackle these issues. I have also heard that Jesus is Lord. Terrible stuff. I better get enrolled in a methadone program.

        • Wolfy32 says:

          That’s nothing new really. Everyone can be a better person than they are… Is that any reason to beat ourselves up for not being better? I mean when do we tell ourselves we’re good enough as we are.. we’re created as we are, and be happy with us? What are we telling our kids if we feel we’re never good enough for anything? If we constantly hear and kids constantly hear they aren’t good enough… What does that do to our and their confidence? Their ability to function in the world? I grew up with being told I’m not good enough, I’ll never be good enough because I’m a sinner, and everything I do no matter what I do is a sin. Watching movies was a sin, not mowing the lawn correctly was almost a sin, or god forbid I have my own thought or ideas was a sin…

          there was a point at which I actually believed everything I was being told by ministers and evangelists.. That I was an evil sinner, an evil person for existing. I nearly convinced myself to commit suicide, becuase there’s no reason to live. I was evil. what’s the point of living if I’m evil… I starved myself in high school, because of religion telling me how bad I was… I had no confidence to do anything. No motivation to care about anything because… Well, I was bad for being human.

          What’s the point of being forgiven if I was going to sin in the next 1-2 seconds because I was human? I asked forgiveness probably a thousand times a day because I knew by just breathing I was evil…. It was pounded into my head in sunday school, church survice sunday morning, sunday night, wednesday night, and on and on….

          I can be a pretty awesome without beating myself up over not being a good enough person. It took me many years to realize that I was o.k. as I am… No thanks to religion telling me I’m not o.k. as I am..

          Which, is it’s own contradiction. We’re never good enough as we are, yet, God created us as we are.. So, which is it. God created us to be evil as we are, or we’re created the way we’re supposed to be as a person and therefore should accept ourselves as we are?

    • Catholic Dad says:

      “They go Ballistic”

      We go ballistic, because we have a loving Father. Who desires our love, and we try very hard to love him. We do get angry/frustrated/hurt, when you go after our Father.

      We also get angry/frustrated/hurt when we go against our Father, and do become hypocritical, i.e. sin.

      We want everyone to experience the love and hope that our Father gives us.

      H.D.P – could I ask you not stero-type Christians – it is really very demeaning, and believe beneath you. “Christian’s have smaller brains” – I guess we were made this way than and it isn’t a choice?

      • H.P.Drifter says:

        Read the material on Google put in Christians with smaller brains

        Think for your self, if you are so happy why get mad, Foolish to say the least

        H.P.D.

  15. Michael Ross says:

    This is an attack on the one true God. Because God cannot be attacked directly, his enemies attack Him indirectly by opposing God’s good design for his creation. God says children are valuable; his enemies bring us abortion. God invents marriage as the union of one man and one woman; his enemies bring us no-fault divorce and same-sex “marriage”. God says “take dominion”; his enemies bring us radical environmentalism and earth worship. God made them male and female; his enemies bring us “genderqueer.”
    By the way, all you enemies of God, just as Satan thought he had his way at Calvary, you think you are having your way now. You deceive only yourselves. your rebellion is futile.

    • Wolfy32 says:

      If God hates these things so much, then why create a species that has them?

      It’s kinda like when a kid says, “When I do this it hurts.” Well, then don’t do it.
      … When God created man he was disappointed and sad at their disobedience and their capability of evil… Well… the answer is really quite simple… Why create them at all then? If all you’re going to be is disappointed and saddened by their capabilities to do everything wrong…. Then, what for allow them to live.. Just start over and make something better?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Michael 5:51 “…you think yor are having your way not. You deceive only yourselves.

      If any of us thought we would convince believers they were wrong, we were indeed deceiving ourselves. :)

      • H.P.Drifter says:

        Jon

        You got that one right, You have a better chance of curing cancer, than converting a believer. Religion is an insidious disease, that is very hard to control once it takes hold. As long as the parents are spoon feeding this crap to the kids since birth there will be people infected. Showing them the truth does no good, its all in their mind anyway bound to brain stem like a parasitic vine or an inoperable cancer. Thank goodness the life span is short in the scheme of things and if the present generation can keep the world livable perhaps future generations will enjoy free-thinking as part of their life plan.

        H.P.D.

        • Catholic Dad says:

          As long as the parents are spoon feeding this crap to the kids since birth there will be people infected.

          H.D.P – How do you explain the child of parents who are non-believers and they become believers. When they are told the truth to question everything – and have big brains – suggest checking out the blog of Jennifer Fulwiler.

    • entech says:

      This is an attack on the one true God.

      To every true believer there is only one true God.
      That is why there are so many Gods, it is so difficult to find one that truly fulfills all the needs of every believer.

      your rebellion is futile.
      50 years of Dr.Who, as the Dalek and all would be dictators say Resistance is futile. Exterminate. Exterminate

      PS. I do hope people know about the doctor, or I would look sillier than usual.

    • H.P.Drifter says:

      A little secret Michael, the Magic Rabbit does not exist, if he did he would have been beaten to death by his follower’s years ago. You can not kill what you can’t see, if the rabbit is as close to you as you think is. The only way to get rid of the rabbit is to blow your brains out or a much better way is to open that imagery cage door in the back of your head and set him free and wish him luck. Be sure to close the cage door after he leaves. The feeling that knowing you no longer have to feed or share your thought’s with the rabbit really is quite liberating. Of course after that you will have to answer to yourself. Difficult at first but you are a smart man you will get the hang of it in no time. Keep trying if the rabbit doesn’t want to leave, you have nothing to loose believe me any hurt is imaginary it will quickly disappear.
      Advice from someone who knows

      H.P.D.

      • Catholic Dad says:

        The feeling that knowing you no longer have to feed or share your thought’s with the rabbit really is quite liberating –

        Would you compare it to opening Pandora’s box? Do you lose the emotions of hope, love and being thankful. If no, to what do you hope, how do you love, and to whom or what are you thankful?

        • H.P.Drifter says:

          Your imagination CD runs wild nothing changes except you. A free thinker is no longer under your control or control of the church. Simple no pandora’s box, imaginary problems

          H.P.D. no crazy behavior either

          • Catholic Dad says:

            H PD

            Can I re-ask one of my questions in a different way?
            You once said you were “Thankful” for getting up in the morning – can you explain to whom or what you were thankful.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            C. Dad 12:24 “can you explain to whom or what you were thankful.”

            Speaking for my self, I’m thankful to a “what”, good luck. I was lucky to have good parents, a wonderful wife, fine children/grandchildren and to have been alive when there was not a great depression or war that took me out. There no other explanation for all this than dumb luck.

            It surely could not have been an “almighty” because I’m not in the club.

        • Wolfy32 says:

          I hope each day I gain incite, knowledge, and wisdom through my experiences and existence, debating with others, and making decisions that show myself love so I am able to freely love others.

          Love is both an action and an emotion. A human action and a human emotion we feel. Similar to anger, we show anger or feel anger or both. We can choose to show hate and/or feel hate. We’re human capable of these things. I feel love, I make choices to love, and I feel love. It’s part of my genetic make up and my brain chemistry. Some have limited capabilities to show these things… Autistic people, people with aspergers, narcisstic personality disordered people, etc. Many mental illnesses decrease the ability of people to show and feel these things. — Indicators they are human traits and part of our makeup.

          I’m very thankful for all my friends, family, for my health, for my life. Despite the bad that’s been in my life, i’m thankful I’m not bitter and still have a very caring and positive outlook for life. I don’t need a church service to be a happy, thankful, caring, loving and respectful person.

    • Formerly Fargo Bob says:

      Michael once again demonstrates what happens when you believe that a god is everything and your fellow human beings are nothing. And what happens when you freak out because not everybody shares your rigid, supposedly god-dictated moral code. What Michael is really saying is that he feels that he is under attack.

  16. Wiggins says:

    Jon,
    I don’t know what those numbers after a person’s name represent.

    However, I would take issue with your assertion that “one of the really important things the Messiah was supposed to achieve he did not.”

    Isaiah 61 provides some details about the Messiah. I haven’t read anywhere that He was supposed to set them free from the Romans. Did you read that somewhere else?

    Were the Jews trying to dictate what the Messiah must be like? If so, could that be why the Jews still are waiting for a messiah 2000 years later?

    • Wolfy32 says:

      The disciples especially were expecting Jesus to overthrow Rome. That’s what they thoung Jesus meant by setting up his own kingdom. They truly believed Jesus was going to lead a revolution against Rome and free them from Rome. Rome was the evil empire. There’s some that believe that the beast’s number 666 was actually a code used amongst the outlawed Christians as a code for Julius Ceasar.

      That said, it explains why the disciples were so lost and grieved after his death. And why they desperately needed Christ to not be dead. He was their banner against Rome, and if Christ died, Rome had won. Having him live… though, (even if he only lived on in the disciples hearts…. metaphoricly speaking) then there’s a chance his name could still have the strength to instill the ability to overpower Rome.

      However, as with most large empires… Rome got too big… I’m not sure how much religion actually had to do with Rome simply imploding on itself.

      • Jinx says:

        WOlfy, its the age old problem of putting your words into someone else’s mouths…..in this case, “they” decided the criteria for a Messiah. Of course, no one could live up to those expectations.

    • H.P.Drifter says:

      Michael

      I do try to take it easy on the Christians, I give them all the rope they want. Sometimes you have yank the rope to make some of these people wake up. Literally they are getting away with murder, making people miserable and feel guilty for no reason.

      Evolution teaches us the human condition is imperfect, I do not need to have someone tell me this, when the facts are obvious. To be part of some other person’s personal agenda, I don’t need that either.

      The world is a troubled place, me personally I think we need to move on and get past the agenda of taking religion as fact, because it is not. It not fact, it’s based on peoples feelings and emotions whatever they are.

      There are universal principles in nature that should gain ground, no killing, no stealing property or a man’s wife, have some set of morals, that let others live in peace with out infringing on their rights as human beings. Really is this too much to ask for?

      They throw old Nixon out of office for his complicity in a break in (got him to resign to avoid an ugly trial the country didn’t need ) Now less than fifty years later we have government involved in all our lives, much more than they need to be.

      The duplication of services by the states and the fed are costing the taxes more than they can pay. The country is going broke because no one can remember why we formed this country in the first. To be free of Tyranny

      H.P.D

      • Catholic Dad says:

        To be part of some other person’s personal agenda, I don’t need that either.

        How does one escape this? Would not paying taxes, being employed, being in the military, taking care of a person, conflict with this ideal? Would not doing any good or bad dead conflict.
        I do not think that one can live with out being part of some personal agenda.

        However, I don’t need to be part of God’s agenda, he does not need me. It is a choice – It is no different to me than my children deciding to love when they are adults.

        Lastly, Googled Christian brain size – in USA today it never compared size of brains between non-believers and believers. It’s findings were mainline protestant had a larger brain
        than other denominations – however, their were varying reasons, but no conclusions. And it was not the whole brain, but one particular area.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Wiggins 7:03 “Were the Jews trying to dictate what the Messiah must be like?”

      The Old Testament Jews invented the concept of a Messiah. One would think it came down from a previous religion. But, they were the ones who wrote in papers that became the Bible.

      Therefore, they have to be considered the Messiah experts. It was not the outlyers who came along later, the Christians. If a majority of the Jews did not think Jesus was the Messiah, why would we argue with them?

  17. H.P.Drifter says:

    Wiggins

    The numbers after someone’s name can mean one of two things. The time they started there post or they could be sighting a chapter or verse in the book of the bible they are discussing, many of these people know the King James version of the bible by heart, Sometimes if you not familiar with every word it is hard to keep up, better to go back and review what was said.

    H.D.P.

  18. H.P.Drifter says:

    Wiggins

    Sometimes the posting times don’t make any sense either. because they are from different time zones, some may be traveling others may in live different times (like Entech) and travel as well he could be Japan, Indonesia or where he lives in Australia. Anyway its all about the running conversation also different people will have conversation going on at the same time, thats way you have read the whole blog if you see there are most posts that the number you saw on your last visit. The number of posts top left

    H.P.D

    • entech says:

      HPD. check the time of your own posts when you submit them against the time it shows on the page. You will find that they are using Greenwich Meantime (couldn’t resist the little bit of chauvinism, UTC or Zulu if you prefer).
      Your most recent reply to my joke about the modest proposal is timed at about 1/2 hour after, the real passage of time not time zones difference.

  19. kay syvrud says:

    Wolfy 32 qand you Jon are correct when you say that the people who lived when Jesus did thought HIS kingdom woult mean the overthrow of Roman rule which was horrible for the Jews of that time.
    However if you read and BELIEVE the account of Jesus Christ returning to
    Earth ( particularly Rev chapter 19) you will know that THERE WILL BE AN EARTHLY KINGDOM ruled by
    Christ –an ideal Kingdom at last….but it wil be marred by the Lord allowing Satan to be loosed (for a time) until the3 final chapter…..Rev 21 and 22. I am eager for that Kingdom because I KNOW I will be there in the midst of it!

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Kay 9:03 “I am eager for the Kingdom because I KNOW I will be there in the midst of it.”

      You will be able to see all of us nonbelievers on the lower level, boiling in oil.

      Let’s make a deal. I promise all of us will applaud all of you in your wings and white gowns. Hopefully you will agree not to give us the bird. :)

    • Wolfy32 says:

      Revelations is one of the most terrifying books to me… Because, A) I believe there’s truth to it. And B) I believe it’s conversely a depiction of an alien invasion…

      Several verses speak of “The earth’s armies turn their weapons to the temple of God.”

      This to me means a physical entity, in the sky that earth thinks it has a chance of shooting down…. In short… A space ship….
      A very large one at that.

      Revelations also says it will take the believers meeting them int he sky… again, taking people against their will.. into a space ship (Alien abduction?) And then giving them new bodies, then taking them to a new earth…

      How about a relocation plan? Hey, we just took you from the lives you know, we’re giving you some new bodies, maybe a space suit, and dropping you off on a new planet.

  20. Wiggins says:

    Sounds to me like it was a problem with the nation of Israel–not with Jesus. What the “Messiah ‘experts’” couldn’t do in 1500 years–dating from the time of their stay in Egypt–they expected Jesus to do in less than 33. Two thousand years later, they still haven’t found their messiah.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Wiggins 10:22 “…their stay in Egypt.”

      There seems no record or evidence other than the OT they every marched out of Egypt.

      ..they still haven’t found their messiah.”

      And, Christians have not presented persuasive evidence of the one they claim–they’ve had 2000 years to do it.

    • entech says:

      Not sure if you are aware of the fact that Isaiah is a book of the Jewish Bible, that their source for the prophesying of the “supposed” messiah is the same as yours, they are still waiting because the conditions have not been fulfilled. You (Christians) have taken the words to mean whatever you need them to mean to fulfill your own version of what a saviour should be, whatever your Jesus (Yeshua or Christos) is he is not the Jewish Messiah, they may have to wait as long for their saviour as you do for the second coming of yours, eternity is a long time to wait.

      A messiah is a saviour or liberator of a group of people, most commonly in the Abrahamic religions.
      In the Hebrew Bible, a messiah (or Mashiach) is a king or High Priest traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil. However, messiahs were not exclusively Jewish, as the Hebrew Bible refers to Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, as a messiah for his decree to rebuild the Jerusalem Temple. The Jewish messiah is a leader anointed by God, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel and herald the Messianic Age of global peace also known as the World to Come.
      The translation of the Hebrew word Mašía? as Khristós in the Greek Septuagint became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe that prophecies in the Hebrew Bible (especially Isaiah) refer to a spiritual savior and believe Jesus to be that Messiah (Christ).
      Islamic tradition holds that Jesus, the son of Mary, was the promised Prophet and Masih (Messiah) sent to the Israelites, and that he will again return to Earth at the end of times, along with the mahdi, and they will defeat Masih ad-Dajjal, the “false Messiah” or Antichrist.

      Wikipedia. emphasis mine.

  21. H.P.Drifter says:

    Catholic Dad

    Google “Christians with smaller brains”

    Make up your own mine, there are pages of informations

    H.D.P.

    • entech says:

      Interesting bit of reading there, one needs to wonder if all variables are taken into account. I would have thought that quality is more important than volume. You have just finished your annual thanksgiving in America, would you have preferred a big, stringy, dried out and tough turkey or a smaller one with a certain succulence to it.

      Apart from size and quality you should take into account condition. Take the likes of Ray Comfort and his followers, their brains are obviously in much better condition than yours or mine, they have never been used :shock:

  22. kay syvrud says:

    Jon steel yourself and read the account of a parable in Luke 16: verses 19-31 and learn about looking over the huge gulf! (of unbelievers seeing believers ) Everyone has eternal life..either Heaven or Hell. You would not have to be in torment in flames if you repented and joined us true Believers in Christ who are assured of eternal life with Christ in Heaven. (other wise there is eternal life with——————————
    (fill in the blanks)

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Kay 3:04 “You would not have to be in torment in flames if you repented and joined us True Believer in Christ who are assured eternal life with Christ in Heaven.”

      That leaves me in a dilemma. Without evidence that seems not to be forthcoming, I cannot believe. My only choice is to say I believe, to tell a lie. Either way I’m left boiling in oil while you sit on high giving me the bird. (I know you wouldn’t do that, it’s just fun to say it.)

  23. kay syvrud says:

    Jon you can be so ignorant at times I could scream.

    1.We will NOT be your suggested “angels with wings et al..in heaven. The angels were created by God as special messengers and guardian angels. Nobody turns into an angel when they enter Heaven!

    2. “Boiled in Oil” Get it right. The apostle John (writer of the Gospel and John 1, 2 and 3 and Revelation the only book of prophecy in the NT) was the only disciple of Jesus who died from old age but he was put into HOT oil as a torture which he survived…….Probably on the Isle of Patmos where he was exiled when he was already an old man.

    If you are going to make fun of the Bible and Believer can’t you at least get your facts right? It would surely keep me from getting so disgusted at your ignorant comments.

    3. Both Old and New testaments speak of the eternal torment of Unbelievers …..
    there will be the Lake of Fire for Satan and his demons plus Unbelievers will join them for eternity. Consult Revelation for these Biblical Facts. (all of chapter 20)

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      kay 12:35 “Jon you can be so ignorant at times I could scream.

      If we face the facts, my version of heaven and hell has as much evidence going for it as yours. I just happen to enjoy the imagery of being in fire and boiling oil, laughing and doing imitations of talking snakes.

  24. noblindersonme says:

    Kay’s Dec 7 post hardly puts her in a better light as she frustratingly whines about Jon’s ‘ignorance’ , his inability to get ‘facts’ right,and her own inability to restrain herself from screaming.
    Sorry Kay , I have read your opinions on many matters when you had your other blog , and scream- worthy pieces of “ignorance’ were not exactly rare. “Facing facts’ as you snottily accuse Jon 0f not doing ,was one of your hallmarks too.
    I could recite examples ad naseum , but then debate gets bloated , lets just say that the argument that ‘facts ‘ and the avoidence or adherence thereof ,too often is a mute point.
    A ‘fact’ you covet and find very useful should not be more important than a ‘fact’ you find contradictory and damaging to your prejudice. You can surround yourself with just the right ‘facts’ that comfort you , but it does not mean you are seeing the truth.

  25. kay syvrud says:

    to noblinderson: I hope that rant made you feel better—– For a rant..it was really good!

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