What Goes Around, Comes Around.

The illiterate Jesus and his circle came from a rural area and spoke a language that was not of the elite.

His circle thought the world would end in their lifetimes.  They were apocalyptic Jews who insisted religious Jewish law be followed.

The people Jesus actually knew were instructed to spread out across their small area and preach these ideas.  They were, however, illiterate and unsophisticated.  Over time they were mostly unsuccessful.

It was the Greek speaking and writing sophicates who later revised the message of the Zealots and successfully carried it to the nonJewish world.  Because the written word could be preserved and spread, it was circulated more widely.

They knew people did not like circumcision and that people would be suspicious of the end of world predictions that did not happen.  Their message was adjusted accordingly.

In a way, something similar has played out in the last couple of decades.  Previously, the broad general public had not encountered influential religious skeptics.

Along came skeptics who were not Jews or Hindus, but were from inside the faith.  They were published by large publishing houses.  Widely distributed books were enhanced by the internet.

The sophisticated Greek-speaking Paul put Christianity on the map.  Today it is Ph. D’s who can speak and write for the general public who are Paul’s nonbelief counterparts.

They have yet to be as successful as Paul.  But, they have put skepticism on the map.

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years.
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23 Responses to What Goes Around, Comes Around.

  1. entech says:

    Ecclesiastes 3 1-8 ? and maybe 20
    Everything comes around in time.

  2. H.P.Drifter says:

    The group at the Episcopal Academy didn’t fair as well, out of twenty five in my class a few more than half of the people are left. Quite a few suicides, one guy who sat next me, (we sat in alphabetical order) now runs a Washington Think Tank.

    We have a studio mogul (ruthless little SOB) his father was the school’s accountant. Two prominent collectors of Nazi Memorabilia. One nun, a girl who screwed half the student body, who’s parents put her in a Mental Hospital, afterwards she joined the Catholic church and now is retired teacher from a Catholic College.

    A couple of people in Jail for financial fraud ( child hood friends of the mogul) A lady author who has done quite well for herself) One slum lord another guy who made money in the real estate boom (legit)

    The rest are guilt ridden drunks on the way out, cancer victims, dementia. The only one who still goes to church is the retired school teacher who is a religious fanatic. Then there is me I am still drawing conclusions, have tried to pigeon hole myself but nothing sticks.

    H.P.D.

  3. H.P.Drifter says:

    What goes around comes around
    Boy I wish that were true, if so probably half the people I know in the business world would have died a horrible death by now unfortunately most are living and still prospering.

    H.P.D

    • Jinx says:

      H P D I do think their is some kind of Karma (payback/reap what you sow) but others may never be aware of it and or, it comes at a much later time. All we see is the facade people construct for the public and who knows what kind of hell people have brought upon themselves. I can think of some very elderly people who are tormented by what they had done decades ago and just realized the impact of their actions.

      • H.P.Drifter says:

        Jinx

        There is something to be said about the reap and sow thing. You beat your kids, they will remembering the beating before they remember what they did wrong. Only through education do you lay the foundation to live on, bad and good stuff happens to everybody.

        Some seem luckier than others but you never know what price they paid to get there. I have a habit of making things looking easy. It took me a lot time to take complicated principles and put them down in simple language so everyone can understand.

        Not an easy thing to do, I try to make things as simple as it gets so when things get completed as they can, from there, I can work things out. More than a few people are jealous of me being able to do that.

        I am a mean old looking guy, my wife is young and beautiful, we have been married a long time. People think she must have married me for money, far from the truth. I have her because I treat her right and I love hear dearly. She returns the favor, she’s a diva, an intellectual and an extremely talented musician.

        Every time I see an beautiful women, who is intelligent, with a nice personality. I am glad she is somebody’s else’s problem and at the same time, I think just how lucky I am.

        I really hate it when I see some old guy or women who is so pissed off about the pass. At least to yourself admit you screwed up, then get over it and move on. Life is to short to look back on bad times and let that affect you. When you die you don’t want to look back on the your life as the person who played the part of the emotional midget.

        H.P.D.

  4. H.P.Drifter says:

    Where’s Michael usually he posts by now, haven’t seen him since we went fishing. Oh I did thinking of something that goes around and comes around. The guys at the Vatican.

    And the rest of you, you left me and Jon alone with the near eastern crusader, That was a close call, you would have thought that it was his horse or boyfriend was messing by his fervor.

    H.P.D.

    • Jinx says:

      Lol, I do agree there would be no christianity without Paul. Been under the weather so don’t have much to say right now but enjoy reading!

  5. H.P.Drifter says:

    Jon

    Saw the video sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction

    H.P.D

  6. Avatar of realist realist says:

    You wouldn’t know it to read what I end up posting sometimes, but I do think that we reap what we sow, not by supernatural intervention, but because when we are nice to people and show goodwill to our fellow travelers, a percentage of them will return the favor and we can anticipate being recipients of love and kindness. Simplistic? Perhaps, but it works on a couple of levels not the least of these being internally. On a cosmic level, stupidity and meanness will continue to flourish as those who refuse to see beyond their immediate well-being continue to make the world an unpleasant place.

  7. H.P.Drifter says:

    We all get on our soap boxes once in while. Really R. is right having good manners and treating people fairly is a good policy even though, it will jump and bite you once in awhile. At least you feel better about your self, which is the most important thing and will sleep better in most cases. The human condition, something, not anything sometimes but we as individuals can try to make it better. Usually it does come back to you in the way of friendship with people you wouldn’t ordinary talk with. Is this evolution of the thought process I think so. For some of us we just want to get along and not get trampled in the process. Be left alone by zealots to our own devices. Fat Chance but it is a good thought.

    H.P.D.

    • Wolfy32 says:

      I believe what goes around comes around… I made rash decisions a number of years ago.. Wanting to escape my parents, and marrying the first person to show me any kindness what soever, since I craved it so much.

      She was the worst person for me on the planet. Perpetuating a marriage of abuse, for the next 12 years, that I allowed to continue day in and day out. Verbal, emotional, even some physical abuse.

      Post divorce after a year and a half, I swore off dating last December, I gave an oath to God on Christmas 12/25/2012 I would not date anyone in 2013, I was done for ayear, figured I’d just work on myself, and be a better person… 12/28/2012 a friend of mine convinced me to go to a concert. I really didn’t feel like going, I was planning on recovering from being home with my parents for 4-5 days. I needed some time alone. They convinced me to go out, but then they had to leave early.. (ha! ) Well, it’s where I met the woman of my dreams. I laughed and cried at the irony. I told God I’m done figuring that 2012 was over and mentally preparing myself to accept that I needed some alone time for a whole year. Well, whether it’s pure happenstance, arranged by the universe, or I’ve had my share of bad, the universe wanted to see what the good could be like, 3-4 days before my oath was to take place, I met an awesome woman, whom I can’t see myself without her. she treats me amazing and I’m able to return the respect and love she shows me. It’s something I never dreamed I’d be capable of experiencing. I had lost “faith” thought friends were telling lies of “love” being real.

      Maybe it’s just me evolving into a person that loves myself more than I did a few years ago or most of my life, or maybe some small gift from the universe, to say you gave and gave, time you get something in return for all your efforts.

      Who knows, but, It seemed too coincidental, too much by chance…

      • H.P.Drifter says:

        Wolfy

        Glad to hear you found the one for you, how you found her is usually the case, when you are not looking. You just have to make yourself available for success. When you are ready Miss Right will be there same thing haven’t to me saw my wife play (she is a pianist) never thought I would get married (had the present of mind to ask for her telephone number) The rest is history.

        H.P.D.

      • Jinx says:

        Wolfy, I am happy for you and wish you and your lady the best! Sounds like you had this coming!!

        • H.P.Drifter says:

          Jinx and Wolfy

          Today I am posting more than usual probably because I am working on the other computer as well, which is right next to this one. Having fun on both computer’s.

          Here is some home spun Philosophy for both of you young guys. “You can not have what you can not have” H.P.D quote

          This is because your body won’t let you have something that is bad for you. No matter how much you may want it, you sub conscious, your intellect, your emotions will not let you have, something that is bad for you.

          They will rebel and you won’t know why. The problem being they are trying to tell you something you need to know. You may will feel sick or a have head ache, stomach ache, a emotional break down, be angry or just feel out of sorts.

          The sooner you learn you can not have what is bad for you, whatever that is, life’s journey will be a lot easier. That means the wrong pretty girl, the wrong job, the wrong food, the wrong town to live, the wrong philosophy any think that makes you feel terrible, Its not right for you.

          It’s like the night my subconscious cleaned house and when I woke up and found God, Jesus, the bible, theology, anything I had no practical use for gone. A clean sweep.

          My intellect finally got the guts to tell my subconscious and emotions to shit can a lot of stuff, the list must have been very long one indeed. Because when I woke I had plenty of room to put back in more stuff. This is as simple as it gets, if you can understand the concept.

          H.P.D.

          • Jinx says:

            I’m not too young of a woman, my oldest is 40 yrs, and you are 100% correct about listening to what is deep inside of you. I think it takes a while for people to get to this point and then to finally risk letting it all go. I fear a number of people never do get this far and its very sad.

  8. Wiggins says:

    Jon,
    I don’t know of any evidence that suggests that Jesus was illiterate. However, the way some of us on this blog write–even with spellcheck, that might be said of us. :-) ?
    The scriptures indicate in Matthew 4:1-7 (also Luke 4) that, while in the wilderness, Satan came to tempt Jesus. Satan tempted Jesus three times. Three times Jesus responded with the words “The Scriptures say…” That discourse would seem to indicate that Jesus probably had read the Scriptures.
    John 8:6 says that “Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger.” That could also indicate that Jesus could write.
    In Luke 4:16-17, the Bible says that Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and stood up to read the Scriptures. Verse 17 indicates that he unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me…”
    I will grant you that he may not have read it in English, but I think there is sufficient evidence that he could read and write.
    I am certainly not a biblical scholar, but I know of nothing that indicates whether any of His followers could read or write. Although with the overwhelming amount of illiteracy in that area of the world at that time—and even now—I would not be surprised either way.
    However, there is a book that bears the name—and was apparently written by—Simon Peter.

    I am not sure of the importance of the “elite,” nor who the “elite” are.
    Nicodemus, as a member of the Sanhedrin who came to Jesus by night, may have been one of the elite.
    Luke, who wrote the gospel bearing his name and the book of Acts , was a physician. He may have been wealthy and elite.
    Paul was certainly well educated, although I don’t know that he was wealthy or elite.
    It would appear that the Lydia of Acts 16 had plenty of money. Maybe she was also elite.
    Even if you are speaking of the “wealthy,” that could be confusing. If so, who are the “wealthy”? Is that the people who, seemingly, have a lot of money? If so, are you referring to those who live in big houses, yet can’t afford to put furniture in them? Are you referring to the former major league baseball player who was making $5-6 million/year and yet had to take out bankruptcy because he couldn’t curb his appetite? Or perhaps a pro footballer who made more than $100 million during his career, yet had little to show for it when he was killed in a vehicle accident in our city a few years ago?
    Or could it be that the “wealthy” are those who thank God for what they have and are able to live within their means?
    The most important thing isn’t who decided to associate himself/herself with Jesus. The most important thing is that Jesus came to—as it says in Luke 4:18—“bring Good News to the poor…proclaim that captives will be released…the blind will see…the oppressed will be set free.”
    Jesus did that…and more.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Wiggans 6:56 re; Jesus literacy.

      Of course, we do not know for sure because no one was there. The Biblical scholars I’ve been reading say it is most likely he was illiterate. There is one or so references to him reading scripture, the literacy rates were very low at the time and no one who quotes Jesus knew Jesus.

    • entech says:

      I have to agree with your first paragraph. It is widely recognised that the spoken language and the written language are often quite different, different in the sense that people will frequently say things in a form that they would not use if writing the same ideas. I have been using computers since the screens were funny, coarse little things in two shades of green and I still can’t really visualise something until I print it out, I find mistakes on the printed page that don’t seem at all obvious on the screen. Writing to blogs seems to me to have introduced another way of mangling things. The number of times I have said to myself “%&^%$ you idiot @!#” or something even less polite when I see the post appear on the screen is probably uncountable. When, for instance, I type “your” somewhere in electronic land that seems to translate as “you”. When you have a spell check that offers to auto-correct, don’t let it; it is bad enough when it offers a list of possibilities and ‘you’ clumsy mouse finger makes your perfect prose incomprehensible.

      Your second paragraph supposedly demonstrating that Yeshua could read and write doesn’t really carry much weight, especially the bit from John about writing in the sand – the whole story is widely accepted as a later addition, not being in any of the earliest copies. The two epistles attributed to Peter are not thought to be genuine by the majority of scholars and many other writings using his name are rejected by the Catholic Church as apocryphal.
      Your other examples are the things written about him sometime after his death, the main way the stories were propagated in the earliest years was orally. Oral transmission does not imply an accumulation of errors, memory training was probably highly advanced at the time – Jewish children had to memorise the complete pentateuch. That Yeshua knew the Torah is not at all surprising, that his biographers said he read from the scrolls could be a figure of speech or could be the depiction of a dramatic device used to add authority to his words. (It could also be true).
      You could make a compelling case for all of this if he had left any written words, you know, this is my story by the man himself, even more impressive would be the post mortem addendum. (we get books (and videos) advertised today about the boy who died and went to hell and came back to tell us all about it ?).
      In the absence of any of his writings how can we be sure he could write, even if we did have anything directly attributable we could not determine whether he did not simply recite them to a scribe, he was after all pretty busy raising the dead and curing the sick so may not have found time in his busy schedule.

      Not sure what you mean when you talk of elites, you mix up elite athletes with elite scholars, I suppose if you were talking about the oldest profession (not lawyers, the other oldest) you could say the high priced lady of the night that entertained visiting “elite” business men and diplomats was one of the elite of her profession compared to the addict who needs to sell herself for the next fix or meal.

  9. H.P.Drifter says:

    Entech

    Glad your back !

    H.P.D.

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