About Jesus, What Does the First Coming Tell Us About the Second?

Christians often point to their vast numbers to imply they are right.  They never point out the majority of Jews at the time of Jesus did not think he was the one the Bible predicted.

The link explains reasons Jews still do not think he was the guy.  The writer’s summary is brief, but his list is noteworthy.

What the Jews anticipated was someone who would free them from the Romans.  They had specific ideas about how the chosen one would conduct and present himself and what his demeanor would be like.  Jesus struck out on all these counts.

Then, there  was this thorny issue of the Jewish laws.  Jesus said believers should follow them.  It didn’t happen.  Christians have had 2,000 years to prove to the Jews Jesus was the one and they have not succeeded.

That the majority of Jews did not agree Jesus was the one prophesied raises and interesting question about what is called, “the second coming.”  If the society has disagreed for 2,000 on who or what Jesus was, why would we think the second coming will be any different?

Suppose someone claims the second coming has happened but there is deep disagreement over whether or not this is true. How will it be resolved?   Will there be a vote?  Will we look to famous Christians like Pat Robertson to tell us?  Will African Christians and North American Christians agree?

To me, results of the first coming do not bode well for the second.

http://forward.com/articles/187446/why-jews-should-not-accept-jesus-whatever-george/?p=all

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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26 Responses to About Jesus, What Does the First Coming Tell Us About the Second?

  1. Michael Ross says:

    The word “coming” means “presents”. In the Old Testament it meant judgement presents, His presents in judgement. I believe that is what we are looking at in the immediate future, judgement, not the physical return of Christ which occurs at the end of history when God’s Kingdom has triumphed on the earth. Too many Christians are looking for some secret “rapture” to take them to heaven. They have given up on the world and we see the results. Just today Hawaii has legalized gay “marriage”. Is this abomination the last straw before His coming?

    http://www.wnd.com/2013/10/as-in-the-days-of-noah/

    • Formerly Fargo Bob says:

      Michael’s comment demonstrates how gay and lesbian people present a crisis for many Christians. Since folks like Michael believe that being gay or lesbian is a sin, it must somehow be freely chosen. Otherwise it can’t be a sin. However, no Christian can ever answer how someone goes about choosing her or his sexual orientation. As a gay man myself, I can state that one’s sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. Hence, the crisis. People like Michael can’t conceive that being gay is just another natural variation among many in “God’s creation,” because that would mean that God has created sin. Or that the Bible might have to be seen differently. Regardless, Michael can go on believing that people like me don’t deserve respect and equality under the law because he’s convinced that his god doesn’t approve of me.

      • Michael Ross says:

        “being gay is just another natural variation among many in “God’s creation”

        Is being a pedophile just another “variation”. Apparently so:

        http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/01/many-experts-now-view-pedophilia-as-a-sexual-orientation-google-hangout.html

        Many are tormented but say no because it is morally wrong or could be put away if convicted. You could resist too if you had the moral conviction and society was unaccepting.

        • entech says:

          Where on earth do you find all this stuff? The obsession you appear to have should give you cause to think.

          Coming means presents, no coming means coming and going means going

          • Michael Ross says:

            Coming in the clouds of judgement.

            http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/13_26-27.htm

            Not too difficult. Hope you will be ready.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Michael 5:29 “Hope you will be ready.”

            I opened the link you provided. It discusses scripture related to the second coming. Interestingly, it states emphatically, the apocryphal language describing the second coming should not be taken literarlly.

            Here we have yet another of the thousands, maybe millions, of people who “know” what the Bible means when it says something it doesn’t mean. That’s the point of my blog. Today, there is no more credible understanding of what the second coming will be about than there was back at the first coming. The majority disagree then, why would not the majority disagree today? Those in the world who profess the be Christians are a minority. Of those who profess Christianity, what happens if a majority cannot reach agreement on what constitutes a second coming, just as a majority of the Jews did not agree Jesus was the “one”.

          • entech says:

            Jon, 3:54pm Your problem is that you just don’t understand the true nature of things. Just open your heart to the possibility and all will be revealed, contradictions and ambiguity will disappear. :lol:
            Just remember to open your heart fully, but don’t open your mind far enough that the brains fall out. We don’t need to enter a competition with the white queen to see how many impossible things we can believe before breakfast. :roll:

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            entech 10:47 “Just open your heart to the possibility and all will be revealed, contridictions and ambiguity will disappear :)

            Yes, how often has that been tossed up here? Just open your heart and you can believe the absurd–says so right there in the Bible.

        • Avatar of realist realist says:

          To equate homosexuality and pedophilia is an outrage. Do you realize how outside the norm your viewpoints really are? It’s why you are not taken seriously by serious people.

        • Formerly Fargo Bob says:

          Michael feels entitled to equate being gay with pedophilia because of his religious beliefs. Really no different than white racists trying to convince us that black men were dangerous sex fiends out to rape white women. Same disgusting technique in a different context. And I notice how Michael couldn’t actually respond to what I said.

    • Carr says:

      Oh Michael, people like you are the reason that Christianity is in decline. Somewhere along the way you forgot, “The Greatest of these is love.” When there is a conflict between love and the law, love wins out. And, who made you judge? No wonder people see Christians as hypocrites. Instead of banging people over the head with the Bible, maybe you should try living more Christ like.

      • Wolfy32 says:

        “Oh Michael, people like you are the reason that Christianity is in decline. Somewhere along the way you forgot, “The Greatest of these is love.” ”

        Michael’s posts drip with loathing and hate… Selfrighteous judge of all… It is people like him that turn me off frome Christianity. For if that’s the type of people Christianity wants.. Then, I don’t want it…

        I was at an evangelical service to appease my parents a week or two ago… The pastor made a comment that just irritated me. It’s perpetuates the same things that Michael believes…
        The pastor was talking about a member of the congregations recent publishing of an ebook.

        The pastor talked about how a non-christian read the book and still felt the book was a good book… He emphasized how a non-saved person found the book interesting.

        Like it was a miracle that a non christian could like something good….

        “The first among them shall be last and the last among them shall be first…”

        The church that rises out of today’s ashes will be the churches that embrace love of all of God’s creations!! Gays included! A church that doesn’t think so much of itself as a selfrighteous judge, but, as a place to expand on the human condition.

        God’s purpose has been a mission of love. to teach us to love. And after all these thousands of years… We still don’t get it!!

  2. StanB says:

    I really don’t think we will miss the second coming. According to Revelations he will not be sneaking in.

  3. Matt Noah says:

    I tried to find out who is associated with the Red River Freethinkers from their areavoices blog and their website. They are a shy group, want anonymity (except Jon Lindgren) or are pretty much just Jon Lindgren. They claim to be a 501(c)(3) but they don’t publish their board of directors information on their websites.

    Everyone is a freethinker. Even those who choose to believe to follow a certain philosophy or religion. Not everyone is a Catholic or Lutheran. I don’t think Jon Lindgren regards devout Catholics (name your faith) as freethinkers unless they dissent from the Catholic (name your faith) church. After all, how much of a freethinker can one be if one believes or follows everything one professes to believe as a member of a particular faith (philosophy, etc.).

    It appears the best definition of a freethinker of the Red River klan is one who dissents from one or multiple tenets of the group one professes membership. Yes, that is a contradiction. Hence, the irrationality of being a Red River freethinker.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Hi Matt, 2:24. Thank you for commenting. I know you, of course, and most of your family as well.

      RRF is registered and Board members recorded with the Sec of State of ND. I no longer hold an office, the new President is Prof Charles Sawicki. Other Board memebers are Mary Cochran and Lilie Schoanack. We meet every month, the location is on the site, and usually have visitors. If you are interested in attending as an observer you are welcome. There is a meeting this Sunday at 1 PM, Plains Art Muesum with a speaker.

      Many, perhaps countless, people have made the same observation you make, that the group is primarily critical of the Christian religion. The definition of Freethinker has not changed for 100 years. How individuals use the term does vary.

      “It appears the best definition of a freethinker … is one who dissents from one or multiple tenets of the group one professes membership.” As a practical matter, that is not far off the mark. A freethinker is one who reaches conclusion independently of a religious or political institution. Of course, one could independently come to agree as well as disagree.

  4. Jinx says:

    Interesting post Jon and I had never thought of the circumstances 2nd coming may resemble the 1st…….that is if you believe that stuff. My hard right christian sister KNOWS what is going to happen and WHO is going to be saved to live in paradise…….the 1st so called coming certainly doesn’t predict the next one!! I feel it just another coercive agent of social control.

    PS A friend of ours likes to state that Blasphemy is a victimless crime! Lol

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Jinx 6:28 Thank for the interesting post.

    • entech says:

      It is interesting that so many people “know” with absolute certainty who, what, why and in some cases when. What is more interesting is that so many people know it differently from the others, yet all claim inspiration from the same book and/or revelation from the same source.
      There is yet another group, the ones that wrote the original, and they are still waiting for the first.

      Love the definition of blasphemy.

  5. entech says:

    Just found time to read the article in full and the comments. In many opinion pieces the comments of the readers give a fascinating insight.

    I have always liked David Wolpe, he is another that is on the lecture/debate circuit and has some published books he and Schmuley Boteach can be seen on Youtube in debates with The late Christopher Hitchens and friends, they make better points and get more respect than most Christian apologists, mind you when he gets going Rabbi Boteach can give lessons on what the word strident means.

    My @9:51 There are more than half the worlds people still waiting for the first coming. Many of them don’t expect or believe and many Jews and Muslims find the very idea blasphemous, one God indivisible.

  6. Catholic Dad says:

    I think Jesus did come in with a bang. There was a giant star lit above where he was born. King Herod sent three wiseman to find his location. Than Jesus, Mary & Joseph were force to flee. King Herod than killed first born hoping to eliminate him.

    “There is yet another group, the ones that wrote the original, and they are still waiting for the first.”

    Entech – the new testament was brought forth by Catholics the old testament is Jewish, so don’t think your statement is correct – unless you were not referring to the bible.

    Since Jews are not Christians it makes since, a rabbi, would write that Jesus is not the Mesiah.

    Been busy – hence the reason I have been away.

    Have a great day

    • entech says:

      To lazy to look it up but from memory of religious instruction at school, the wisemen came following the star looking for the “new born king”, on the way they came in contact with Herod who asked that they tell him when they found him so that he could himself worship the new born, the wisemen, being actually wise saw through him and kept it from him; this is why he killed all the so many others.

      Not quite sure which of my many statements you mean, (in your eyes I expect that most of them are incorrect, I respect that and it is obvious that I do not believe many things that you believe), but you appear to be saying that the old testament is not part of the Bible. The copy I have, with my name embossed on the front, that my Grandmother gave me, includes both, being Church of England it is the King James authorized version, the translation people gave up their lives to make. My other Grandmother laughed her head off.

      Jews are certainly not Christians one of the comments on the article talks about why not convert to Catholicism A Jew sees themself facing G-d upon death and G-d asking, “So what was it about I am the Lord your G-d. You shall have no other gods before me didn’t you understand that you pray to this man Jesus?”
      another along similar lines, “I am a Jew who has a covenant with G-d based on the Torah. You are a Christian who prays to a Jew who has a covenant with G-d based on the Torah. So why become a Christian.
      So because the saviour did not save them from the oppressors the Rabbi has good reasons that he “would write that Jesus is not the Mesiah, one practical and one theological.

      Your kind wishes for a nice day are reciprocated.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Catholic Dad 10:44 “Since Jews are not Christians it makes sense, a rabbi would write that Jesus is not the Mesiah.”

      I prefer to look at the argument of the messenger, not shoot the messenger. The Jews were practicing what we would call today, “Results Management”. They laid down the requirements of what characteristics and accomplishments the mesiah would have. Then they measured what the person offered up compared to the requirements. Jesus did not pass. The majority of Jews at the time did not think he passed.

      I’m just saying the second coming may have the same problem. People will see whatever is before them and give a thumbs down. If it happened once, why would it not happen again?

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