Boy Scouts Can Learn From the Girl Scouts.

The Boy Scouts of America have voted to allow gay boys in their membership while banning gays from being Scout leaders.

This saga illustrates a couple of things.  First, religious groups have always seen themselves as running BSA.  Now that they have been pushed back it will be a different organization.

Second, it illustrates how difficult it is today to have a national organization the includes some overarching ideology.  That the BSA will become smaller and other competing organizations will sprout up is no different that the fracturing of churches and even political parties.

Yet, the Girl Scouts are doing well, having endorsed gay members and leaders a couple of decades ago.  They are building for the future.  Boy Scouts can begin to do that now.

I read today the Mormon Church has endorsed the new policy of admitting gay Scouts.  Mormons provide big numbers for the Boy Scouts so it seems the policy will eventually work out for them.

It would be interesting if BSA would conduct a survey of recent Eagle Scouts.  I would guess young men themselves would have fewer problems with the new policy than parents and conservative clergy.

The religious right has conducted boycotts and threatened boycotts of many businesses and groups dozens of times in the past couple of decades.  Perhaps there were a few successes, but mostly there were failures.

BSA needs to go bravely into a secular future.  The Girl Scouts are already there.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/boy-scouts-of-america-lifts-ban-on-gay-youth-61-percent-vote-for-resolution-96569/

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years.
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49 Responses to Boy Scouts Can Learn From the Girl Scouts.

  1. Henry says:

    What determines a gay boy scout?

    For the privacy and modesty of the other boys, the gay boy scouts will require their own restrooms and showers.

    • Avatar of realist realist says:

      Only in your mind, Henry. I think showering together went out with Baden-Powell, repressed homosexual that he was. He was quite adamant about nude swimming though. I have full confidence that boys everywhere will be able to adapt to this without much notice unlike sex-obsessed senior citizens.

      • entech says:

        I was at an English boarding school way back 1950s and we did shower 12 at a time. I had heard of such things as boys getting together with other boys. Do you know that you did not who was who. I guess Henry the expert in all such things would have known.

        • Henry says:

          I don’t know. That is why I am asking the question. The gay boyscout debate is set up on the premise that we know what a gay boyscout is. What is that? Someone, please tell.

          • entech says:

            You are the expert, if you don’t know I can’t imagine who would. You are my source for all things to do with “sin” in any of its forms, you must have spent a great deal of time on the subject.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 3:26 “The gay boyscout debate is set up on the premise we know what a gay boyscout it. What is that.”

            The regs refer to a self identified or “out” boy. You are correct in wondering what is a “gay” boy. When I went to national meetings on gay advocacy, definitions were discussed. One definition of sexual orientation is which gender a person instinctively feels attracted to, or, is it to both. Another is how the person thinks of him/her self. Some people are attracted to the same gender as they are, but sincerely self identify as straight. Then, there is the identity people present to others, which might not be different than the above.

            As I would interpret the BSA policy, they will not ask any question about sexual orientation. Whatever a boy self identifies will have no bearing on his standing as a Boy Scout.

          • Henry says:

            Complicated.

            Then one must ask, if gayness is good for the boys, pray tell, why can’t the scoutmasters be gay as well?

          • Henry says:

            One must also ask, if gay scoutmasters are bad, how can gay boyscouts then be good?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Henry 1:55 You would get along well with the members of Congress who can’t talk enough about sleeping in tents and showering with gay boys. When he was in High School, our (straight) son went to sleep overs and Scout campouts with boys who we all knew were gay and didn’t have a second thought about it.

      • Henry says:

        Jon:“Scout campouts with boys who we all knew were gay and didn’t have a second thought about it.”

        I am sure if we had one bathroom in public situations for all the sexes, most would behave themselves. There are a few that won’t. I guess society has decided to pleasure those who don’t behave themselves. We don’t care.

        • entech says:

          You would be surprised at how many places in the world have unisex toilet arrangements, where male and female use the same place, but not at the same time, of course, to urinate and evacuate their bowels. I presume that is what you meant by your euphemistic use of bathroom. I don’t know of many places that have actual bathing facilities, although a bidet could be a bit ambiguous.

          If you associate any of this with pleasure, well do tell, you are after all the expert on all forms of “perversion”.

          • Henry says:

            All I know is there are democrat toe tappers posing as republicans in public restrooms.

          • entech says:

            Sorry Henry, I am an innocent and ignorant foreigner, would it be possible to have that in English?

          • Henry says:

            It involves politics. You generally choose not to participate in American politics.

          • entech says:

            OK. and quite rightly in that case, just wondered about “toe tappers” and “public restrooms”.

            Just as an aside why are such strange euphemisms used in America. Rest is the last thing I would think of, do your business and get out is my thing. If I want to rest I go to the nearby coffee shop and absorb the sites, sounds and smells, the other place has no appeal for any of those things.

          • Henry says:

            Restroom, bathroom, comfort station, latrine, john-all the same. My American convert brother-in-law calls it the loo.

          • entech says:

            OK. best I heard was an Australian country expression I was asked if I wanted to use the shouse?

            And toe tappers?

          • Henry says:

            My wonderful politicians who oversee my country’s well-being teach me much.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal#Arrest

          • entech says:

            I see. All I could think of was something along the lines of thumb twiddling, or in the military time server. You know just wasting time to no avail or no reason, a man elected to government could easily keep his nose clean and do nothing except the right noises now and then for the “folks back home”. And spend the rest of the time on the golf course or picking up a bit of insider information for his investments.

            The thing about this was that it didn’t seem right, it was not derogatory enough for you, it could and does happen all over the world, on any side of politics. You would need to be on a much stronger attack than that when you introduce democrat, or atheist you are always using them as the basis for an ad hominem attack, for the point that it cannot possibly be correct, sensible or even vaguely reasonable because of the source, democrat or atheist. Now you tell me this, actually the Wikipedia bit was more even handed than you would have been, I had to read it a few times to find out that the man in question was a Republican senator, I would imagine if he had been democrat you would have mentioned that in your reference.

            It does confirm my point that you seem to know more about the world of sinful sex than I do. Why are you so fascinated? trying to work out who you may be able to look over the balconies of heaven to see suffering.

          • Henry says:

            entech:“Why are you so fascinated? “

            Not my fascination. The gay agenda fascinated in shoving these issues in our face on a daily basis is highly instructional without any effort on my part. I am fascinated in not having the corrupt movements tear our institutions down. That is a fascinating endeavor.

          • Henry says:

            entech:” I would imagine if he had been democrat you would have mentioned that in your reference.”

            The toe tapper was indicated to be posing as a republican. You will have to re-read.

            I can’t even criticize my own without someone crying foul. Moral of the story, compromise and appeasement does not satisfy, a principle democrats have learned long ago and are quite wise and adept at avoiding compromise. They have learned well not to give ground.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            The Senator Larry Craig story represents the complex notion involved in the definition of the term “gay”. I believe if you could get inside Craig’s head, you would find someone who is attracted to same sex, one of the ways to define the phenomenon, but in his mind be believes he is heterosexual. That is, he self identifies himself as straight.

            We had a prominent person here in Fargo some years ago who had a police record, two instances, of soliciting same sex on the street. I know him. He told me he absolutely is not gay.

          • entech says:

            Maybe fascination is a bit strong, but that’s acceptable as you are inclined to overstate the case.

            But the depth of your knowledge must come from study and that needs an interest. So are you so against sin because you think of it as a danger, or, is it a danger because you are against it.

          • entech says:

            I only say, that on my observations that you would have made a point of saying he was a Democrat if he had been.

          • entech says:

            Henry @ 2:15 The toe tapper was indicated to be posing as a republican. You will have to re-read.

            Senator Larry E. Craig, Republican of Idaho, plans to resign his seat on Saturday after Republican leaders put intense pressure on him to leave in the aftermath of an undercover sex sting, Republican Party officials said Friday.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/31/washington/31cnd-craig.html?_r=0

            From the article, I found this reference.

          • Henry says:

            Yes, a RINO. I feel like I am repeating myself in trying to answer your charges/questions.

          • Henry says:

            Jon, I agree with your 2:35.

          • entech says:

            Henry, Cool morning light while my oatmeal cooks, Re-read the entire post and see that in my haste I had overlooked, misread, misinterpreted, whatever, your post following my mention of unisex facilities being common in many parts of the world.

            @ 3:59 am All I know is there are democrat toe tappers posing as republicans in public restrooms.
            All I picked up was the strange new phrase, If you had explained ‘straight’ out we could have saved a lot of time and bandwidth. Found RINO, guess there are people in the Democratic party who would have been more at home in the republicans or elsewhere, we have had more than one that was quite public about indecision over which party to join. This one was leader for a while, another joined the left party via trades unions because he knew he would never be accepted by the conservatives. These are the types I was thinking of as “toe tappers”, time servers, time wasters just being there for convenience.

            So I do apologise.

            A quick question to end, how do know about the democrats seeking anonymous homosexual activity are pretending to be Republicans? I know of politically active people here who would rather be thought to be guilty of any kind of immorality rather than a member of the other side. Perhaps you don’t know, perhaps it was just another blind slander? Guess I should apologise for imputing your being less than even handed.

  2. entech says:

    Jon, areavoices seems to have a glitch, I am frequently being asked to join and provide a site address

  3. Michael Ross says:

    My oldest son, 27, became an Eagle Scout about 12 years ago. Since then he has become an Iraq war vet and a U. of Minn business grad. He is now back with the Scouts as a District Executive. It is a great job for him and he loves it. My fear is for the future of the Scouts. This gay issue is a lose, lose proposition. Open doors to gay Scouts and adult leaders and lose support from religious affiliated sponsors. Hold firm to their traditional values and lose corporate and political support and get smeared by the establishment media as hateful, bigoted, homophobes. The homosexual community would gladly destroy this 100 year-old organization if they don’t have their way. Many gays are as selfish as they are perverted. Its all about us and our agenda.

    How old is a boy when he can join the Scouts? About 11? Sexual orientation should not be an issue. Doubtless there have always be homosexual orientated Boy Scouts. I say let them in. Masculine role models of older Scouts and adult leaders may cause boys to grow up and identify themselves as men and not strange little birdies.

    A SCOUT IS PHYSICALLY STRONG, MENTALLY AWAKE, AND MORALLY . . . STRAIGHT!!! This means the same now as it did 100 years ago.

    • Henry says:

      Mike:The homosexual community would gladly destroy this 100 year-old organization if they don’t have their way.”

      You got that right.

  4. Avatar of Mac Mac says:

    Michael, again we mostly agree. The Scouts not only chose the right thing to do; they made the choice that is most likely to ensure their existence in the future. Their exclusive stance alienated them from a number of national organizations, and as I’ve often said, the current young generation just doesn’t care about homosexuality.

    Question: where is all this showering going on? I didn’t realize this was such a central part of scouting. And more importantly, why are middle aged guys so obsessed with showering? First it was DADT and now this.

    For the record, Ricky is an Eagle Scout and I think the organization helped solidify his exemplary character and integrity.

    • Henry says:

      Mac:“where is all this showering going on?”

      Surprised at boy scouts taking a shower? Read their motto, something about straight and clean. Do homosexuals not know what a shower is?

    • Henry says:

      Also, why is the homosexual concerning himself where the location of the boy’s shower is? Very strange.

  5. Brad says:

    There could be a solution for the anti-gay crowd. They could start an explicitly anti-gay scouts organization. Then we could see once and for all how much support there really is for the anti-gay movement.

    • Michael Ross says:

      Better idea: the GLBT (don’t know if I got the order correct. Being PC is not my specialty) and other sexually DISoreianted could start their own scouting organization. Call themselves the Metro-sexual Scouts.

      • Brad says:

        The problem is though, is that you basically have bigotry and non-bigotry. The onus is on the bigots to prove themselves by standing up for their bigotry and seeing just exactly who supports them. The verdict is pretty much already in among the non-bigots.

  6. Avatar of Mac Mac says:

    You know what would be the BEST idea? everyone (including gays) minding their own business about everyone else’s sexuality and getting on with the business of living life and making this world a little bit better because of our time here. The good news is I truly believe this issue will die out with this generation. The changes I’ve seen in the past 20 years are remarkable.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Mac 4:36 “minding their own business..”

      That’s basically what the Girl Scouts have done–it’s the future of Boy Scouts. I predict the period of discrimination will be looked back on the same way racial segregation is seen today.

    • Brad says:

      I couldn’t have said it better myself.

  7. Michael Ross says:

    “Boy Scouts Can Learn From the Girl Scouts.”

    They can learn no good. The GSA has been taken over by radical feminists and lesbians.

    http://www.100questionsforthegirlscouts.org/100/feminism.cfm

    • Brad says:

      If they have been taken over by feminists and lesbians, then their future is incredibly bright and hopeful. Tell me where I can donate money to them.

      For president of the U.S., I would like to elect a disabled Hispanic lesbian atheist woman who is a child of illegal immigrant parents, born in Arizona the day after they crossed the border. I would prefer that she has had an abortion and a sex change and has been living in poverty since birth, surviving off food stamps and other government assistance. I would prefer also that she has been a lifelong member of the ACLU and the Socialist Party of America.

      Such a president would raise the level of morality and compassion of the presidency.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Michael 7:54 re: website link

      It’s basically about equal rights for straight women and lesbian women. Nothing radical about that.

      • Wolfy32 says:

        Could it be the obsession of Gay men in boyscouts is because there’s an inherent fear that adult gay men will exploit young impressionable boys? Though, I would adhere to the philosophy that pediophilia has little to do with sexual orientation or sexual desire, but, regardless, in my mind, when I think a lesbian leader in a girl scout group… There’s no real concern, yet, for some reason as society I think a fear of letting gay men as leaders there’s an inerrent fear that they would take advantage of young vulnerable boys.

        It’s strange that that stigma alone doesn’t seem to exist for the female gender nearly as much. I don’t know if it’s just the differences in male / female, women are more in control of themselves and men are more they can’t keep their pants up, so, they are seen societally as less in control… Gay men amongs a group of a dozen boys!! OMG! They won’t be able to control themselves at all!!

        Then again, don’t we do it to ourselves as a society? I remember a couple male high school teachers talking amongst themselves in the commons area of the high school. I overheard parts of their conversation… It sickened me. They said something to the effect of “Don’t you love this time of year… These girls barely wear anything!”

        I think the fear is not a religious or ethical concern. But, a simple primal concern for the safety of kids born out of society’s need to sexually objectify people regardless of their orientation.

        With the strange exception of lesbian women as girl scout leaders. They get a free pass from all the stigma.

  8. Henry says:

    Jon:“Boy Scouts Can Learn From the Girl Scouts.”

    The atheist dream.

    http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/404134/publisher_ID/1/

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