What Do You Think They Will Talk About in Rome?

I suppose even to Catholics, what is goes on at a Pope confab is a mystery.

I can only guess about what goes on from national and international meetings I have attended.  People like to discuss the problems they are having back home.

This is not the imagery the Church projects, which is the Cardinals are all praying and petitioning God.  But, a local perspective, “Which Pope candidate will help us?” is some of what surely must go on.

A little tension surfaced today when a press story said the different cultures from different parts of the world were not agreeing on how much of the procedings should be discussed in public.  The Europeans were against anyone talking to the press, the Americans thinking at least some transparency is an obligation.

The news from the Chicago Diocese was especially grim this week.  It needed to cut $10 million from its budget.  To make this happen, it closed several schools and eliminated 75 positions in the Diocese office.  It will make more cuts next year.

An official explanation for the cuts is that the bad economy reduced donations.  But, if this is happening in several dioceses, and numbers of adults and young people are slipping, one has to think there is a least some whispers in Rome about unpopular Vatican positions on issues like gays and birth control.

It is said all politics are local.  If that is not true in religion I’d be surprised.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-archdiocese-laying-off-10-percent-of-work-force-20130227,0,3996133,print.story

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About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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85 Responses to What Do You Think They Will Talk About in Rome?

  1. buzz says:

    People are discovering their own efforts of Spiritulism(honest and humble) among others of the same needs don’t have to Lack comfort and companionship because of not belonging to the mega churches. I believe it is a great time to develop a one on one relationship with a power greater than Self. Recovery Church in south fargo is a great place to start a new journey in a quest for serenity.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      buzz 3:30 I’m glad for you that church fills your needs. Not everyone needs the higher power concept, but for those who do it’s good they can participate in your church.

  2. Simple says:

    Why would anyone trust an institution run by a bunch of old men who took a vow of celibacy that says they can’t even rub one out?

  3. Brad says:

    It would be nice if this was the beginning of the end of the Catholic church as we know it. Catholicism is a dysfunction, and anyone who refuses to believe that is truly blind. Furthermore, it is like a government unto itself, and it’s time to see it busted down or better yet eliminated.

    • Stanta says:

      Yes we don’t need that freedom of religion crap do we?

    • Henry says:

      Brad: “and it’s time to see it busted down or better yet eliminated.”

      Bust the Catholic Church down? So much for the concept of seperation of church and state that atheists pontificate about. Cling to the principle and beat Christians over the head with it when it suits them. Discard it when it gets in the way.

      • Jeffrey Eide says:

        Henry, as always, you are more concerned with slander than thinking. You are talking about the separation of church and state, then causally mentioning a STATE based on a CHURCH. Hmm… funny thing, that.

        • Henry says:

          Slander? Less concerned about thinking? Yes, I was talking about atheist behavior. Good point.

          • entech says:

            Thank you for the concession, it has taken years. And it is a good point, everything you say when you talk about atheists, their behaviour and the beliefs that you try to impose on them is slander.
            I don’t think you could say a good thing about anyone that wasn’t “on your team” whatever that might be.

          • Henry says:

            Blah, blah, blah. Any comment on just another glaring atheist inconsistency? Probably not, just more atheist slander and less atheist thinking.

          • entech says:

            Projection seems to be your new strong point.

          • Henry says:

            Actually, it is JE’s.

            http://redriverfreethinkers.areavoices.com/2013/03/08/what-do-you-think-they-will-talk-about-in-rome/#comment-194752

            Slandar and less thinking all rolled into a stereotypical athesit response.

          • entech says:

            Could apply just as well to you. I think it is fair comment. Not slander at all.

            By their fruit you will recognize them … or perhaps their words. To quote the bard … doth protest too much, methinks.

          • Henry says:

            No comment I see on the atheist inconsistency? Careful, JE will demand that you answer the question. He is good at that, if it suits his purpose. Then Jinx will stop packing and praise him in a flurry of worship.

          • entech says:

            Sorry Henry, middle of a heatwave here, just had to rest for a while.
            Must be getting a bit addled by the heat I can’t see any “atheist inconsistency” in the comments you point to.

            The comment that comes up on my screen is where JE says that Stan Hates Homosexuals and it is because he is a Christian. This is a common correlation on this site. The only inconsistency is when you tell us that you “love your neighbour” – I don’t see any qualifications to that sentiment, I even see something about loving your enemies.

            Perhaps you could explain a bit further.

          • Henry says:

            entech, it is only through the love of Christ that I am able to be on this site. You are right, my love would likely fall short, not being very graceful.

          • Jinx says:

            Ha HA HA Henry! I gotta support my friends!!! I am too busy right now to sit and type out my views and my evidence so I am just agreeing with my friends if they post something like I would say. Some of Jeffrey’s, Entech’s, Mac’s and Jon’s posts cover the issue so well, there really isn’t anything I can add!

            You just wait, Henry, I’ll be back in full armour eventually!

          • Jinx says:

            OOps, I forgot Wolfy & Brad & someone else….

    • Wolfy32 says:

      Not that I want to see the good an organization does go away. And there are deeply spiritual Catholic people out there that I hold in the highest regard…

      However, that said.. I would be o.k. with the Vatican being torn down and being made into something like every other church out there.. Subject to the nations laws, rules, and obligations. No more a nation that’s above every other nation just so they can hide their perversions of humanity.

      No, I’m not saying every of the catholic organization is evil. A lot of evil comes from the abuses of its own power over others…

      The Dark Ages were called the Dark Ages for a reason.. And the Catholic church had a lot to do with it.

      • Stanta says:

        The writing of the Greek philosophers were saved by the monasteries of the “dark ages”. Current studies of the time period suggest that they weren’t as dark as you think. A better understanding of history seems in order.

        That pesky First Amendment and freedom of religion will go soon after the Second Amendment is repealed and no churches are allowed but home churches, if that.

        Do you think all those good things would have been possible without a unified Catholic Church? Do you realize the work on then is still being done in the developing countries?

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Stan 6:26 “Do you realize the work…still being done in the developing countries?”

          On one can deny Christian churches do good works. The question is, why does the Church’s good have to be compared to the bad? Why does the Church have to continue its dispicable practices and theology? It goes out of its way to put down gay people. It blocks women from clergy positions. It’s like, “We need to scamble to find some good things to do in order of offset our dark side.” Doesn’t make sense.

          • Stanta says:

            Jon, as a nonmember why should you make the rules? Yes there are homosexuals who live a decent lifestyle and should be honored for their lifetime commitments. But there are also gay bath houses where the only commitment us to sex. Unfortunately maybe like the individuals who claim to be good Christians and aren’t they get more press then the good the church does. Personally I have seen very self distructive decisions being made by many in the gay community, I prefer not to invite that drama into my community unless it is something they want to change, not to change my community to suit them.

            If you create your own religion YOU get to make the rules. Leave mine alone

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Stan 7:30 “Personally I have seen very self distructive decision being made by many in the gay community…”

            I’m glad you have never heard or seen the self destructive behavior among heterosexuals. It would be nice to lead such a sheltered life.

          • Jeffrey Eide says:

            Yeah, we get it Stanta, you hate homosexuals and it is because you are a Christian.

          • entech says:

            Stan 7:30 pm If you create your own religion YOU get to make the rules. Leave mine alone
            OK that would be a good deal, you leave the countries rules alone and the country leaves yours alone.
            And keep out of the bathhouses if you don’t like it, I bet most of the clients keep out of the church.

        • entech says:

          Actually it was the Arabs, what is now Baghdad, that preserved most things during the European Dark Ages then around 1100 or so along came Al Ghazali and sent them back into their own dark ages.
          Mainly called ‘Dark Ages’ because there was little known history of the period, monasteries did tend to be a bit insular and more interested in religious thinking.
          Why do you think we use “Arabic numerals” and words like algebra and algorithm, stars and galaxies have mainly Arabic names, planets Greek/Roman names.

          Not to put down the contributions the university of Bologna precedes Oxford, Salamanca is the third oldest in Europe (with a strong Moorish history).

          • Wolfy32 says:

            How far back do we want to go? The origin of Bath houses dates back to Greek times. Bathhouses were originally temples to a Greek God / Godess. They were some of the first introduction of hygiene and cleanliness to avoid disease and infections. I would guess they weren’t chlorinated bath houses either… heh.

            Either way, yes, many churches, temples, and the like have done good. Greek Temples accomplished great things. Inspired armies to believe they were blessed by their God of war. Their navies blessed by Poseidon, etc. Gods have inspired human history to accomplish way more than we could have accomplished had we just been going about day to day with no inspiration or motivation.. I’d like to see how some of the ancient wars would have turned out with no Gods for the Greeks and Romans to believe in..

          • Henry says:

            The Moslem invades and holds Salamanca from 712-939 when the Christians reclaimed it. Records can trace back the University of Salamanca to 1130 AD. So to our knowledge, the origins of the university can be traced back to when Christians had control of the city, yet entech implicitly gives credit to the Moors for the university.

  4. Dustin Metzger says:

    Brad, how long do you think your views of the Catholic Church have existed? Try 2000 years. The Catholic Church is part of the body of Jesus Christ. Its not going anywhere, and praise God for it?

    How many millions of lives are saved from starvation by the Catholic Church? How many millions of people are cared for in Catholic hospitals? Think about all of the positive causes that are faught for by Catholics around the world.

    When you say ” It would be nice if this was the beginning of the end of the Catholic church as we know it”, you obviously have know idea what that would look like.

    • Stanta says:

      I agree, some people with no idea of history don’t even realize that the Church actually created the concepts of orphanages, hospitals and universal education as we know it. In the third world education is still provided by Christian churches of all denominations.

      • Matt says:

        “and on this rock i will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”. sorry buddy but the catholic church isnt going anywhere! and praise God because there are many more souls to be saved!

      • Jeffrey Eide says:

        Stanta, you clearly do not understand the difference between correlation and causation. Yeah, because before any christian church, the Romans, Greeks, or any other ancient civilization had never considered hospitals. Of course they had them.

        Standardized Education came out of the industrial revolution in order to train people for working in factories, and other specialized jobs.

        As for orphanages, the Jewish law demands the care of widows and orphans, and many cultures, such as ancient Athenian, took care of orphans until 18. Plato advocated finding orphans home and took an active duty in this.

        Before you make wild claims, be prepared to back them up.

        • entech says:

          I was going to say that there is a pretty good case for organised orphanages, others had a sense of obligation to orphans. Interesting the orphanage concept is becoming regarded as being far from the best way of caring for those in need.
          Hospitals in existence years before Catholicism even existed, 400 BCE in India for instance.
          A mixed bag in education, keeping everything in Latin for so long, don’t want the peasants to read the bible and so on, is not a good image.

          Many good things for good reasons and many bad things for bad reasons. You can’t have one without the other.

  5. Brad says:

    I guess it doesn’t surprise me that I would get a lot of reaction to what I said. Let me make a few points:

    1. If anyone really wants to go down the road of the good/bad of the Catholic church, that’s fine, but then we also need to include all the atrocities over the past several centuries, such as the Inquisitions, the Crusades, the sexual abuse, and the insane rituals and practices.

    2. The Catholic Church is not really a “church”. It’s a regime. It’s a government and a nation unto itself, often immune to the laws of any government other than itself. It’s an “untouchable” because their existence is justified and sanctified in the name of the Lord. That’s always the catch-all for the religious community – everything is always justified in the name of the Lord.

    3. When I said that I’d like to see the Catholic church busted down or eliminated, I certainly wasn’t talking about some sort of government action. For one thing, the Catholic regime is centered out of Rome. That’s a bit out of the jurisdiction of the United States. What I said is really just my own wish, and in reality the only way it can ever be busted down or eliminated is from within. Actually, I would be impressed if they could simply ditch some of their insanity, such as forcing their priests and nuns to live without sex (which is the primary cause of all the sexual misconduct).

    4. I’m not going to deny that the Catholics have done many good things over the centuries, however it is IN SPITE of their regime, not because of it, that they have done a lot of good. There are millions of rank-and-file Catholics (including many priests, nuns, etc) who do all kinds of good things. But forcing priests and nuns to live without sex DOES NOT feed hungry children. Forcing women not to use birth control does not build orphanages. Crazy rituals do not provide education. See my point?

    • entech says:

      Hagia Sophia would be a good model for the Vatican.

      • T says:

        Does anyone know how much wealth (cash, stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, silver, etc.) the Catholic church controls? I’m guessing that the minimal amount starts with “b” and rhymes with “illions”.

        • Brad says:

          Well, it’s gotta be in the billions. I guess the love of money is only the root of all evil when it’s the secular community doing the lovin’.

          • T says:

            Drive through rural areas of countries like Mexico where you see Catholic churches ornamented in gold and marble while the locals live in utter destitution…

          • Henry says:

            Ah yes. The Catholic church brings external finances in, employs the locals to build the church, and “T” is complaining about the economic effects of the Catholic Church on the locals. An atheist is never happy.

          • Stanta says:

            Goodness, some of the labor programs on the building of cathedrals kept generations of locals employed. Just like government projects today.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Stan 3:49 “…the building of cathedrals kept generations of locals employed. Just like government projects today.”

            I hope this is an endorsement of Obama/Bush government programs.

          • T says:

            Henry, imagine a foreign power invades your territory, takes your land, forces your children to be educated according to the their standards, take from you what they deem to be of value, impose entirely new economic, political, linguistic, and religious systems on you, and then act like they’re doing you a favor.

          • Henry says:

            T: “to be educated according to the their standards”

            “T”, the Catholic church has done a terrible disservice to the previous Latin American culture. {/sarcasm}
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture

          • T says:

            Once again Henry plays the “their crimes were worse than ours so we’re justified” card. Did you conduct that little mental exercise that I suggested?

          • Henry says:

            “T”: “Did you conduct that little mental exercise”

            I did enter your imaginary world for a moment.

          • Matt says:

            more accurately pride would be the root of all evil…

          • entech says:

            About all the employment created building cathedrals, does anyone else think it would have been better spent on the orphanages, hospitals and schools that some crow on about as being beneficial. Or perhaps the mentality is that if we have lots of cathedrals and churches we have somewhere to pray for orphanages, hospitals and schools.

          • Henry says:

            entecj: “About all the employment created building”

            You will have to ask T on his 2:13. He brought this up.

            And who made you the decider on the Catholic Church’s allocation of resources?

          • entech says:

            Hey, just asking. Not a member no right to make decisions. Just looking in and thinking, many people think I should be a member, so need to look at what I am asked to join.

          • entech says:

            Just looked back to T and his 2:13.

            You lie through your teeth, T mentioned the gold and silver, you are the one that brought in the economic benefit.
            And as for “an atheist is never happy”, how about a Christian never accepts fault only credit.

          • Henry says:

            entech: “About all the employment created building

            entech: “T mentioned the gold and silver”

            T: “Catholic churches ornamented in gold and marble”

            entech, you are making false accusation. You are in constant error. Good thing they made you the ship coal shoveler and not the ship chaplain. Although not having the proper amount of coal banked can be a problem as well. There is an art to fire making.

    • Matt says:

      um…maybe you should do a little research about the catholic church before you go throwing around ignorant accusations all willy nilly. I think the whole sexual abuse scandal by priests thing has kinda been done to death…its time to move on to something a little more legitimate. hear are a couple things to get you started.
      http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm

      http://blogs.denverpost.com/hark/2010/05/25/scandal-creates-contempt-for-catholic-clergy/39/
      you some of the work of dr. scott hahn would help you understand some of those “insane rituals and practices” that we have.
      God Bless.

      • Brad says:

        The problem is that the sexual misconduct is a direct result of the sexual restrictions put in place by the Catholic regime. As long as total abstinence is a mandatory requirement in the Catholic regime, the sexual misconduct will continue. You can’t force humans to be super human. It doesn’t work.

        • Henry says:

          Brad: “You can’t force humans to be super human.”

          No one is forcing priests to be superhuman. No one is forcing them to be a priest. They are free to leave and marry.

          • Brad says:

            True, nobody is forcing anyone to be a priest, but the Catholic regime relies on some form of clergy just like any religion. The problem is that once the commitment is made to be a priest, you are then expected to abstain from sexual activity. This deprivation of a basic human need is what drives at least some of these priests to sexual misconduct.

            A better way to say it is that the Catholic regime expects super human conduct out of humans.

        • Matt says:

          so what is your reason to the equal number of offenses in all other denominations…you apparently didnt read either article…that or you just still dont get it…

          • entech says:

            Yet many within the church, which holds itself up as a leading moral authority, say officials should have known better than to continually move offending priests from parish to parish.

            “We will never understand it. The church knew it wasn’t right, yet so many things were swept under the rug,” said Mark Ross, a 73-year-old Thornton Catholic who spent decades in lay ministries. “Many people didn’t know it was happening. Others refused to believe it — it was too shameful. It breaks my heart. I feel sorry for the good priests, and there are so many of them.”

            I read them, it is true that the horror is widespread, it is also true that no one in the hierarchy seems to want to admit that it ever happened or that the cover up was so widespread. My local cardinal, a voter in Rome, still tries to downplay it all and his own part in the cover ups, he still says losing the faithful is a bigger problem than child abuse – cause and effect anyone.

  6. Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

    It is amusing to read references to “Christian principles”, “Trinity” and voluminous quotes from records referring to the United States as a “Christian nation”.

    So far as I know, there has never been a document, approved of unanomously by the House and Senate, signed by a President that uses the words, “The United States will hereby be known as a Christian nation.” That is, there is no document to offset the Treaty of Tripolli.

    Attempts go on to downplay its significance, but that so far has been unsuccessful.

    • Brad says:

      You’re right Jon, and it has to be frustrating not to be able to nullify that declaration (in the Treaty of Tripoli) when you hold the belief that the U.S. government was founded on Christianity, and when an entire political party makes that assumption.

      • Henry says:

        Brad: “when an entire political party makes that assumption.”

        Political party you say? How about the democrat party of FDR? Those dastardly dems were the ones that modified the Pledge of Allegiance in 1942 and 1944 to the horror of the atheist. Then the atheist proceeds to blame the Republican about Christian involvement/basis in government. The impression I am beginning to be left with is that atheists “are stuck in a child-like stage of intellectual development”.

    • Henry says:

      Jon: “Attempts go on to downplay its significance”

      Never knew it had significance. The atheist promotes an obscure treaty document to govern all other laws. Pure genius.

      • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

        Henry 8:07 “The atheist promotes an obscure treaty document to govern all other laws.”

        It is you opinion the Treaty of Tripolli is obscure. Gadged by the amount of discussion about it, I would call it well known. Perhaps it is discussed more than most other Treaties of the United States.

        And, of course, saying it is obscure does cleverly side steps the main issue, at what other time or by what other document has the government of the U. S. offset or negated the statement included in the Treaty of Tripolli?

        • Henry says:

          Jon, I’ll stand by my previous arguments. However, I just stumbled on some commentary concerning Tripoli Treaty. It appears your very important Clause 11 was added in after the fact. It does not appear on the Arabic copy. With your fascination of Erhman and his study of documents being added to and appended, I would think you would similarly declare Clause 11 a fraud and suspect.

          http://morallaw.org/blog/2009/03/tripoli-v-paris-a-tale-of-two-treaties/

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 8:27 I read the attachment. I seen this tactic many times. It discusses the “Arabic version” of the treaty, as if the one copy found is the one used by the government of Tripolli at the time. As I recall, this copy was found in some other country and is of an unknown source.

            The rest of the argument which more or less says that, although the document says the government is not Christian, the nation is still Christian. It ignores the fact that the not Christian government was placed there by its people. They did not want a Christian government. I is inaccurate to say we are a “Christian nation”. Use of the term “Christian principles” means nothing. It is said by many the founding fathers were influence, at least to some degree by the way tribal government were run on our continent. So, maybe it would be just as accurate to said our government was founded on “Indian principles”. Christians got a lot of their stuff from Pagans. We could say our government followed “Pagan priciples”. Etc. etc.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “as if the one copy found……this copy was found in some other country and is of an unknown source.”

            Sounds like something Erhman would fall all over in making a “discovery”. You are changing your tune, Jon, on these ancient documents. Why?

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 9:49 “Sounds like something Ehrman would fall all over in making a discovery.”

            Comparing papers from 2-3000 years ago is a different ball game than from 200 some years ago. If there is a piece of paper remaining in the government of what was Triopli in the 1700′s, and, you could compare that with what is actually in the government achieves of the U. S. government, we’d have something to talk about. As it is, we don’t the Tripoli document.

            And, what if the document were in those Tripoli archieves and was different? It would not the political expression that took place here in the U. S. The sentence, “not in any sense a Christian..” would still be there.

            There are Christians in this country who seem to be so envious of Muslim countries. They seem to say, “Look, Muslims can put their religion in their governments. We should be able to as well.”

            The Treaty of Tripoli is their worst enemy.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “Christians got a lot of their stuff from Pagans.”

            Not so much. A little influence. And those that had influence are virtually unrecognizable as pagan, leaving only a remnant of a name, with the event’s focus on Christ. The articles the pagans used to use in their religious ceremonies, I’ll eat scrambled for breakfast on Easter morning before celebrating the resurrection of the Paschal Lamb. Not a big deal.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “The Treaty of Tripoli is their worst enemy”

            In your dreams.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “not in any sense a Christian..”

            I would agree the US Government is “not in any sense a Christian Religion”. It is however derived from Christian principles from Christian men and a slight influence from atheist/deist Pain. I know this news is troubling to you, Jon. My sympathies.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 10:30 “Christian principles”

            Used several times, no definition. Is it “hands in the till” like happened recently in the ELCA? Is it buggering young people like happens once in a while in churches? Is is making money, $50 million, with fake healing like Benny Hinn? Need some help here.

          • Henry says:

            Jon, why are you focused on sin with those examples? And homosexuality (buggering) of all sins? You preach often about its supposed virtues. You are confused.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 11:38 “You are confused.”

            Henry, I really need to levy some king of fine on you for having too much fun here. You go from topic to topic, making questionable statements and staying with them until some puts the hammer down. We entertain you. In a peculiar way, you entertain us. :)

          • entech says:

            Henry 10:30 why is it that you can never admit to be wrong, or even let something just slide away. Tom Paine was a deist not an atheist.
            From Age of Reason his personal creed:
            I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
            But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
            I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
            All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
            I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

            The man’s own words may not be good enough for Henry, nothing appears to be good enough if it does not follow his own idiotsyncratic views.

          • entech says:

            PS. I find a little difficulty with the idea of a creator but I could happily agree to the rest.

          • entech says:

            Jon 12:19 You know I sometimes think Henry used to post as Emily.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            entech 12:34 “..Henry used to post as Emily.”

            A little insider joke for those of us, including Henry, who have posted here for a long time.

  7. Matt says:

    entech: I agree that they should not be trying to cover it up as embarassing as it is. and there is no excuse for that kind of thing to ever happening anywhere let alone at the hands of one whos purpose is to lead people to christ, however what saddens me is out of all the positive in those articles you still refuse to let the issue go. can you at least agree with me that it is not a chatholic or even christian specific problem. not even a majority problem among catholics or christians. and it most certainly has nothing to do with a religious orders vow of celibacy or chastity. my point is that it is time for people to take the blinders off and stop tearing down priests over this topic. it has been disproven. let it go.
    God Bless

    • Henry says:

      Matt, a side-discussion. I saw the most beautiful thing last night. A many-membered family all dressed up leaving St. Mary’s in Fargo last night at about 8:00. The little girls had nice dresses, the men all suited up paying reverence to the Lord.

    • entech says:

      Matt, during the time this subject has been coming and going on this blog I have offered many examples of non Catholic and non Christian offenders. I have told of a Muslim family in England that had to leave the city they lived in, they found their young daughter crying and frantically washing her hands, when they complained about what the Imam or whatever had made their daughter do they were ostracised for bringing the Mosque into disrepute. A well known Jewish college in Sydney, Australia is admitting now that the perpetrator is in court to a cover up, a leading Rabbi is admitting that he was advised by an anonymous phone call from a student and failed to follow up. Part of a local investigation (high level, similar to a Senate Investigation) includes Government run institutions for “Wards of the State” (orphans, abandoned children etc.) following a National apology to children who had been sent to Australia in the early fifties for a “better life” all were told they were orphans, many discovered later that they weren’t, many were fortunate enough to be adopted – many suffered abuse in religious and secular institutions (not all sexual but much physical and mental), a State apology has recently been given to young women who in the 19509′s were coerced into giving up their children for adoption, been told they had died and many of the children actually raised in abusive institutions.

      My main complaint that is specifically Catholic is that so many are still trying to downplay, deny and divert attention. The head of the local diocese as a reaction to the investigation sent a letter to all parishes satig the most important thing at the moment was to increase the efforts against gay marriage, the suggestion of women being given higher and more authoritarian roles to play has been spoken of as being sinful and impossible, spoken of in the same paragraph as child abuse – not as being equivalent as some tried to imply, but at least thoughtless, stupid and showing a complete removal from reality by the hierarchy. If you read my local papers this is the main cause of diminishing congregations and we still have people saying diminishing congregation is the problem.
      A Queensland Bishop was sacked and denied a decent pension because he suggested that ordination of females could be discussed, not considered but as a subject that could be discussed as being possibly considered at some time – ex felon paedophiles are being treated better in a sequestered retirement than this.

      I am not convinced celibacy is a largely contributing factor in child abuse. There are many cases of priests having affairs with members of the congregation – to me, acceptable actions between knowledgeable adults, there are others where there is an obvious abuse of power. The power motive is a large part of abuse of all kinds.

      It can be let go when an open and concerted effort is shown t o make sure it ends and never comes back.

      • Matt says:

        I can agree that it is sad and unacceptable that they try to cover it up and down play their wrongdoing. I would guess the reason for this would be the embarassment and pride of the individual clergy.
        http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/f/Women_Priests.htm
        Here is a short explenation of why women can not be priests. I guess I dont expect you to agree with it, but it will give you some insight to our traditions. Catholicism, if practiced per its teachings, is a very deep faith with a level of spiritualism that even most catholics dont fully understand.

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Matt 11:34 “I guess I don’t expect you to agree with it…”

          It’s not a matter of not agreeing. It’s a matter of being arbitrary. First, no one really knows what the practices have always been–those who wrote about them were not there. Second, a close study would reveal any number of prescribed practices have been abandoned. Excluding woman has not because it is not in the interests of the elite clergy.

          • Matt says:

            I guess if you dont consider the bible to be truth then it would seem arbitrary, but thats a whole other topic. Point is the bible is the law of god(for us believers). The fact that it is the law is the very reason we need the hierarchy of the church…to “interpret and enforce” the law. We have the same system in our judicial system. We have a supreme court to interpret and enforce the law. We cant just go around interpreting and making up our own laws willy nilly…this is the exact reason we have 40,000 different christian denominations…because people didn’t like they way the law was interpreted by the people jesus left in charge to interpret it.

            Yes, things have been changed, added, and excluded over the years, but this is a process of much lengthy pray and discernment…that gets back to the topic of spiritualism.
            God Bless

        • entech says:

          To me it confirms that religions have been written by men for the benefit of men, I use that in the genetic sense. All that writing is just to justify the superior masculine position. From what I read women had a much more important role in the early church which was gradually eroded. There is little doubt that the community aspects of the early church, of home based churches, centred around communion and that communion was more literally a meal provided by the leader of the house church which was just as often a woman as a man. Probably one of the strengths of the early church.

          I also think in a more general sense religion is a man made system.

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