Two Women Told About Their Abortions.

Last night was an annual affair to raise money to pay for abortions for impoverished women.  Several hundred people were there, many had to stand.

Two women I have know for over 30 years spoke.  They are well known in the community, are quoted in the local paper on various community issues and are active Christians.

Both women are in their 70′s and told of abortions they had before Roe v Wade.  The stories were so compelling, you could have heard a pin drop. Both were married when they had their abortions.

One lived in the Milwaukee area at the time and had experienced serious medical problems after her first two births.  Her doctor warned he not to have more.

She used birth control measures available at the time, but became pregnant.  To have the abortion done locally she had to declare herself suicidal.  She had the abortion in a disguised basement of an office building.

The other lady also had two children, and also suffered medical complications making another pregnancy dangerous.  When birth control failed her, the doctor tried to have a hospital abortion in Sioux Falls and Sioux City.  He was turned down.  She had the abortion done in Rapid City by a doctor who somehow made a living doing them when it was illegal.

The abortion debate has not included much story telling by women who had them.  If this continues, I predict some of the political opposition will fade.

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years.
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87 Responses to Two Women Told About Their Abortions.

  1. buzz marick says:

    We will be justified even if it kills someone. How sick is that. All sins need to be confessed and forgiven or they will be charged at judgement day.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      buzz 2:57 There is no need to confess about abortion or anything else. Judgement day is everyday while we are alive and, hopefully, are making life better for some other human being. One cell is not a human being.

  2. Michael Ross says:

    “Two Women Told About Their Abortions.”

    This week was the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, the US Supreme Court decisions which made abortion legal through the entire pregnancy. Current estimates are that in the past 40 years, 55 million children have been murdered by abortion in America alone. It’s notable that the two women involved as test cases for the pro-abort side, Norma McCorvey (‘Jane Roe’) and Sandra Cano (‘Mary Doe’) now want that decision reversed.

    Two women we didn’t hear from.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Michael 3:38 Having women die in child birth when it is preventable makes no sense whatsoever.

      • Michael Ross says:

        Abortion is 4 times deadlier than childbirth.

        http://afterabortion.org/2000/abortion-four-times-deadlier-than-childbirth/

        For the mother that is. For the baby . . .

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Michael 4:04 “Abortion is 4 times more deadlier than childbirth.’

          Are you saying the two women who spoke it the event, who’s doctors said their lives were at risk if they had another child, would have been safer by giving birth???

          • Michael Ross says:

            Are you saying 60 million abortions were to save the life of the mother???

            Life of the mother (vary rare), rape and incest are 3% of abortions (figure I have heard). The great majority are purely for convenience.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Michael 5:04 “Life of the mother (very rare), rape and incest are 3%..great majority of purely for convenience.”

            These highlight the problem of putting “no abortions” into policy. What, exactly, do we mean by the life of the mother? Is it a 90% chance she will die? Or, a 50% or a 5%? Then, who is to determine if there was a rape? An “abortion committee”? A police officer? A judge? And if there are disagreements in either the probability of the life of the mother or whether a rape occurred, who resolves it and when?

            Best is to leave it a private matter between doctor and patient.

        • Henry says:

          Mike: “Abortion is 4 times deadlier than childbirth.”

          Yup. My wife and I had a stillborn. The obstretician chose to deliver normally as there were less complications than having an abortion.

          A question. When there are complications with an abortion, who deals with it? I would speculate the hospital does, not the abort clinic.

          • Henry says:

            P.S. The obstetrician also said that my wife would appreciate what he said after delivering instead of aborting. She did.

          • Michael Ross says:

            Thanks Henry, that was a great addition to this discussion. My parents had 2 stllborn babies in 1943 and ’45 before my brother and I were born. They regularely visited the graves at Riverside with flowers. Mom and dad are now burried with them and I keep up the tradition of flowers on memorial day. They are with their babies in heaven along with my brother who has since passed on. They considered the 2 still borns their children as much as they did my brother and I. We can be thankful we were born into families that valued human life whether born or unborn.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 3:50 “A question. When there are complications with an abortion, who deals with it? I would speculate the hospital does..”

            The Clinic here has not had a complication, hospital case, in over five years. Good clinics have almost none. That’s why the procedure is considered so safe. There are not so good clinics that have problems.

            This outstanding safety record, however, is now being used against abortion clinics. The State of Mississippi has passed a bill requiring clinic doctors to have hospital admission rights. To maintain rights, a doctor has to have something like 10 admissions a year. Abortion doctors have virtually none. This law, if upheld, will put the only clinic in Mississippi out of the abortion business. The same law was introduced two years ago in ND and is being introduced again.

            Before Roe v Wade, a woman I know here had to go to New York for her abortion. If Roe is overturned, and it returns to being a state by state issue, states w/o clinics will have to receive financial doantions and fly patients to states where it is available.

          • Michael Ross says:

            Fargo must have the safest “clinic” in the country. For the mother that is. For the baby it is 100% deadly.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “The Clinic here has not had a complication, hospital case, in over five years.”

            I could not find any data to support your claim, Jon. http://www.redriverwomensclinic.com/index.htm
            Maybe you can furnish some.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 6:31 “Maybe you can furnish some.”

            As a matter of fact, I can. Please visit whatever websites are managed by protesters. I’m sure the local Catholic Church has one and there must be others. Look to find a picture of an ambulance at the Clinic taking away a patient. If this did happen, a dozen protesters with their phones would have photographed it–probably the Forum would have published the photo.

            Maybe there are such photos on these sites, I have not looked.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “picture of an ambulance at the Clinic”

            That doesn’t prove anything. I remember on two occasions driving my wife directly from a clinic to the hospital where she required further assistance. She did not go by ambulance.

            Pregnancy is very complicated. “Every pregnancy is different”. It doesn’t seem reasonable with the volume of abortions that RRWC does, that there haven’t been complications in the last five years. That isn’t close to reality for one to hear who has been through a number of pregnancies and deliveries. Pregnancy is very complicated.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 9:43 re: Clinic complications.

            I am confident no clinic doctor has admitted a clinic patient in a hospital the last five years. Protesters look for any possible hint of trouble patients might have. In the past they have taken pictures of patients, learned patient’s names and told their families and perhaps employers. If the websites do not have information about patients with hospital complications, it is highly probable there were not any.

            In addition, the State of ND requires a lot of information. I have not checked that. Perhaps there is information there that refutes my claim. If there is, I will withdraw the claim.

            Now, if you read right-to-life sites, they are all full of deaths, suicides, depression, regret and you name it from abortions. In low income areas there are low cost clinics and, I understand, some of them are not all that good. They should be upgraded or closed.

          • Henry says:

            P.S. With the no complication in five year record of RRWC, maybe my wife and I made a mistake in birthing our children in the more dangerous hospital. We should have chosen the safer abortion clinic setting with a stellar record.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 9:49 “birthing our children” ???

            I didn’t know women’s clinics had a maturnity wards.

          • Henry says:

            Maybe they should consider such with a supposed record of no complications.

          • Henry says:

            I checked the ND State Health Department Registry. I couldn’t find the Red River Women’s Clinic on it. All the other players seemed to be there. They seem to be operating under the radar. Here are the divisions I searched:
            Ambulatory Surgical Centers
            Basic Care Facilities
            Nurse Aide Registry
            CLIA Laboratories
            Comprehensive Outpatient
            Rehabilitation Facilities
            Home Health Agencies
            Hospice Programs
            Hospitals
            Intermediate Care Facilities
            (ICF/IID)
            Kidney Dialysis
            Long Term Care Advisory
            Committee
            Outpatient Physical Therapy /
            Speech Pathology Providers
            Portable X-Ray Suppliers
            Rural Health Clinics
            Skilled Nursing Homes

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 10:38 Seems like it would be under “Comprehensive Outpatient”–it’s there somewhere I guarantee.

          • Henry says:

            This is all I could find:
            http://www.ndhealth.gov/testimony/docs/15.pdf
            Looks like the RRWC is not filling out all their paperwork. Looks like they have a hearing April 16-19, 2013.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 11:03 As I understand it, the Clinic believes the information the State say it requires is not actually required by the legistlation passed, or, viloates confidentiality. Lawyers will figure it out.

            As you can see by that testimony, the Clinic has a bunch of things it has to comply with and that information is available at the Capitol.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “Seems like it would be under “Comprehensive Outpatient”–it’s there I guarantee.”

            Ain’t there.
            http://www.ndhealth.gov/HF/North_Dakota_Comprehensive_Outpatient_Rehabilitation_Facilities.htm

            Your guarantee isn’t working.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry “Your guarantee isn’t working” Meant to say it’s there somewhere, I know that.

            See your own 11:03.

          • Henry says:

            Here are some recent death statistics:

            http://ndhealth.gov/vital/pubs/ITOP%202011.pdf

            No sign of RRWC being on any registry for a health facility. I would suppose that is rather fitting.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “See your own 11:03.”

            Testimony of the director of the state health department doesn’t qualify as a listing (name, address, contact number, etc) for a health facility in ND. The abort clinic apparently gets special privileges and doesn’t need to be listed.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “Lawyers will figure it out.”

            No. The skirt-chasing judge in town will “figure it out”….what was his name (memory lapse)? He has been assigned to the case. His biases are already very apparent and could set up an easy appeal. Let’s see…skirt chasing judge…pro-life or pro-abort bias? To but this to bed, it would have been better for him if he is rooting for his “home team”, to allow equal testimony and cross-examination. Tsk..tsk.

        • entech says:

          Fascinating study, my take is that in Finland (the source of the data) more women die from not being pregnant than do from having a baby carried to full term.

          Table 1 shows that the age-adjusted odds ratio of women dying in the year they give birth as being half that of women who are not pregnant …

          Lies, damned lies and statistics.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            entech re: Finland study

            As I recall, there was a discussion about “risky behavior”. Women who had had abortions were usually unmarried and had more deaths from “risky behavior”. One might expect more “risky behavior” from the single men who are not married. Is “risky behavior” a result of abortion or the reason people end up needing it?

            And, the Finland study admitted it took a snap shot of data at one point in time, and, that a study over time might yield something different.

      • Jinx says:

        Always sad to learn of stillbirths and miscarriages, even though the child did not survive it makes no difference in the grief of its parents and extended family. I’m very sorry for your pain and loss.

        Men discussing pregnancy and complications, what is the world coming to! I don’t care how much you read or your wife tells you, you still have no idea what feels like to be pregnant and especially when you have complications and or risk factors.

        Here are just a few risk factors or complications that can lead to death of the mother:

        Type I Diabetes…….killed my cousin, my friend miscarried
        Lupus & other autoimmune problems
        Post Birth brain Aneurisms…… Killed my friend
        Massive Hemorrhage at birth/miscarriage
        Pre eclampsia
        Placental tears
        Ectopic Pregnancy………Killed my favorite cousin
        and a host of other problems most people don’t even know exist! Even for seemingly healthy women.

        Pregnancy does cause more maternal deaths than abortions you need to look further than Prolife websites and pamphlets.

        Abortion also does not cause breast cancer!!!!!

        • Jinx says:

          Why question WOMEN’s virture when a number of single women/teens would be alot better off if guys kept their pants zipped!!! paraphrased from a statement my husband’s gruff old former NFL player now high school football coach gave to the team numerous occassions.

          Yea, I know women play a role in this to, but some males push and push and push…especially the younger crowd. BTW, the biggest cause of teen pregnancy is school girls dating older men (defined by out of high school by 2 or more years.

        • Henry says:

          Jinks: “Men discussing pregnancy and complications, what is the world coming to! I don’t care how much you read or your wife tells you, you still have no idea what feels like to be pregnant and especially when you have complications and or risk factors.

          Wow! How judgemental from a pro-aborter.

          • Henry says:

            And drawing upon stereotypes.

          • entech says:

            You wouldn’t know what it is like to be be gay unless …
            Doesn’t stop you being judgmental.

            I don’t know either, before you ask.

          • Henry says:

            non siquitur

            Besides that, your team holds themselves out to condemn judgmentalism, yet most or all of your team engage in it. Strange.

          • Jinx says:

            The name is JINX.

            I knew I would get to a few men and that was my intent, do you have any idea how preposterous you sound with your circular logic!

            Judgmental??? Us women are sick to death of men who think they absolutely know how we experience life; as well as men who try to make decisions for us….personally, politically, culturally, and reproductively! You can try to understand and that would be a big improvement but you wil Never Know, And thats a fact!

            Judgmental? Pro-aborter? Maybe I am playing Devil’s Advocate or maybe I am being cynical, but you have judged me without any real discussion or knowledge of my beliefs.

            Stereotypes? See above for facts on the male repression of women…..and then go look in the mirror.

          • Henry says:

            Jinks: You can try to understand and that would be a big improvement but you wil Never Know, And thats a fact!”

            You treat it like secret knowledge. Yet, you are addressing only 1/4 of the equation with your feelings. Left out in the cold by you are the consideration of the feelings of the husband, children already born, and the unborn child. Not very comprehensive knowledge or analysis in making it solely a consideration of the woman based on her “knowledge”. You leave strong argument to do otherwise.

  3. Ed says:

    Yes… Mr. Ross is correct Jon. Again your argument comes from the extremist perspective. You cannot fool everyone by extracting examples from the 3% and then make generalizations (again). The majority of conservatives do not have issue with abortions due to medical reasons related to the mother’s health. Those are tough, but necessary choices. Rape and incest – yes. But for the other 97% who want to conveniently take back the one night or didn’t have great luck with family planning, there are many wonderful couples wanting to adopt….Adoptions should be $100 and a 30 day wait?

    Regarding when a baby is a human, when is that Jon if not one cell? Two cells, eight cells, 9 months? When delivered from the mother?

    • Michael Ross says:

      75% of women that concieve as a result of rape deliver their babies. I say let the kid live but kill the rapist (provided you get a solid conviction beyond a resonable doubt). Or would that “cruel and unusual”?

      • entech says:

        Surely pro-life is inclusive. Yet you are advocating the death penalty.

        • Michael Ross says:

          Yes, punish the guilty, not the defenceless innocent

          • Jinx says:

            Michael, Michael, Michael, your still killing a born person who grew to adulthood………and he/she may be innocent since DNA analysis has cleared a number of death row inmates!

            We won’t even get into such factors as race, childhood experience, learning disabilities, borderline retardation, etc.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Ed 3:15 “Regarding when a baby is a human, when is that Jon if not one cell? Two cells, eight cells, 9 months? When delivered from the mother?”

      First, when there is a human being should not have a absurd definition, like one cell. One cell has nothing in common with a human being. It is more like an amiba than a human being.

      Second, the law starts a human being’s clock when a birth certificate is signed. That’s a good definition.

      Third, Roe v Wade has a different definition, that seems to work OK.

      Fourth, we could use any of the numerous definition other society’s use. There are society’s that use two years old so they don’t suffer as much grief when infants die.

      In conclusion, I’ll just say there is no definition used by any primative or advanced society that is as absurd as one cell at fertilization.

  4. Michael Ross says:

    Elements of America’s death culture:

    • Homosexuality – Just as heterosexual marriage promotes life and procreation, so homosexuality and now gay “marriage” promotes death. It is not a “lifestyle”, it is very much a “deathstyle”.
    •Abortion – 60 million defenseless unborns have been legally murdered since Roe Vs Wade in 1973.
    •Continuous “wars of choice” – America has been continually at war since 1991. As many as two million have perished in foreign lands along with thousands of young Americans.
    •Media violence – Whether graphic video games or TV and movies, violence is everywhere. The same Hollywood celebrities that line their pockets making violent movies are now lining up to promote gun control.

    This hypocrisy permeates our society and we are all guilty. Liberals support gay “marriage” and abortion. Conservatives (including millions of Christians) support perpetual “wars of choice”. In 1973 Roe Vs. wade was shoved down the throats of an unsuspecting public by the judicial elites on the Supreme Court but in 2004 conservatives reelected Bush Jr. knowing full well that his war was propagated on lies. Likewise, in last year’s election, for the first time, four states openly voted in favor of gay “marriage”. More importantly, the whole nation reelected a president that publically came out in support of it.

    Across the board, liberals and conservative, atheists and Christians, we have all chosen death. School shootings and other gun violence are only a symptom. All of this cheapens human life. This is the death culture of mass killers like Adam Lanza who don’t value the lives of school children anymore than thier own. We have sown the seeds of death, death of our children (born and unborn) and eventually death of our civilization.

    “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man (or nation) sows, this he will also reap.” (Galatians 6:7)

    Note: This is from a letter I recently submitted to the Forum. Its been 2 weeks so I assume it wont be published. The PC Forum is obviously Pro-abortion and anti-2nd ammendmant

    • entech says:

      • Homosexuality – Just as heterosexual marriage promotes life and procreation, so homosexuality and now gay “marriage” promotes death. It is not a “lifestyle”, it is very much a “deathstyle”.

      How do you work this out? I cannot see how a monogamous, faithful same sex marriage should be any more “death promoting than monogamous, faithful different sex marriage. It is recognised that while same sex marriage do not generate offspring, many more orthodox marriages do not either, I do hope that you do not suggest that the failure to create life is the equivalent of causing death.

      • Michael Ross says:

        If you deny that there are intrinsic moral truths, then there is nothing wrong with hatred, anger, lust, coveting, prejudice, etc., as long as they aren’t manifested. Again, if there are no intrinsic moral truths, then please find an exception to the statement that it is always wrong to torture babies merely for your personal pleasure. If you can’t, then aren’t you admitting there are moral absolutes — to which we must ultimately answer since it implies a moral Truth Giver? But, I digress.

        Homosexual marriage is really about two things: love and sex. Sure, homosexuals profess love for one another. But, they also have sex with each other and it is the latter issue that, in my opinion, is the driving force behind their marriage redefinition. Think about it: homoSEXuality. Yeah, I know, its just a word. However, it leads us to the practical concerns as they are related to sex, the very thing that the homosexual community has brought out of the closet/bedroom into the public eye.

        • entech says:

          Actually I do think that some things are wrong, simply wrong in themselves. Torturing babies for personal pleasure is always and in every case wrong, it would be difficult to find a more obvious example. Sexual abuse of children is another, although this is always wrong some cases are more abhorrent than others – any one ‘in loco parentis’ who takes advantage of that position of power is particularly bad.

          Now you say that if I accept somethings as wrong I must accept that there is some ‘Moral Truth Giver’, I do not agree. Even if I did agree there is nothing to suggest that such an entity is your God – even if there were reason to accept the Adam and Eve creation story and that particular God as the Moral Truth Giver, how does that define a moral truth, does God say it is moral truth because it obviously is then why do we need God to state the obvious – it it turns out to be moral truth because God says it is then we can get some strange morals, genocide is justified and so is homophobia; and so is much more that most reasonable people would agree is certainly not good morals (confess to a little question begging when I said “most reasonable people”)

          You certainly do digress and do not return from your digression, the question was ‘How do you get to equate homosexuality with your made up “deathstyle”.

          Back to your digression I would think that my example of a moral truth that sexual abuse of children is wrong is an argument against this moral truth giver, your God. Not all but a sufficiently large percentage to be a worry are officials in one form or another of one of God’s churches, how could this be permitted, why would an ultimate moralist permit such immorality to exist, why would he permit his servants to cover up so much abuse and at the same time direct his servants to spread hate against fellow humans that are all part of his creation. That such is the case, along with lack of demonstrable proof of existence, makes for a strong case that there is no God, and certainly not yours.

          No matter what philosophical and religious arguments that are presented for the existence of a creator none can say that the creator is your God, there are many other contenders. Further there is nothing to support a Trinitarian version of Christianity over a Unitarian version.

      • Jinx says:

        You’ve got that right Entech! North American Native tribes honored these 2 spirited people; gay tribe members formed the “Berdasche Society” (sp?) and this society was recognized and respected by many, many tribes. We could learn alot from their acceptance of many different people and phenomena.

    • Jinx says:

      Michael, reading your post sounds like headlines for “The Onion”!!

  5. Jinx says:

    A few years ago I knew a woman who had 2 children under 6 years with a serious genetic disease. Her spouse got a vasectomy but did not have a sperm count test and she became pregnant. After many tears and painful deliberations the couple decided to go through with an abortion. The family had maxed out their insurance, were hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical debt and she could not work because her children needed constant care. The parents had hit their max stress wise and could not risk caring for another ill child.

    Who are YOU to stand in judgment of this woman and her couple and who are YOU to believe you know the mind of a god who YOU believe exists! They did the best they could with what they had and could not handle any thing else.

    • Michael Ross says:

      Typically you take the most extreme examples and project them on the whole abortion issue. Pro-lifers have nothing but sympathy for such a person and if they need an abortion to protect her life or health nobody I have known in the right to life movement would judge or condemn her. I’m not saying there are not such persons, I’m sure there are but they are the rare exception. These examples are 1% of the abortion spectrum. At least 97% of abortions are merely for convenience and back up birth control. YOU are the one being judgemental.

      • Jinx says:

        You have absolutely no clue what these women are going through and all but a handful make a very difficult decision after much deliberation. Convenience! What BS!! So who is being judgmental?

        • Henry says:

          argumentum ad verecundiam
          (fallacious)

          • Jinx says:

            Henry, you wouldn’t know fallacious if it bit you on the nose.

          • Henry says:

            Oh? Do you have consensus from legitimate experts indicating my knowledge of birthing is less than your aquired knowledge through your gender? I don’t think you do. That would be the standard to make your argumentum ad verecundiam nonfellacious.

          • entech says:

            Henry, you are rarely right but you are wrong again. Jinx is appealing to experience. You are the one that is forever appealing to authority, the authority of unverified and unverifiable scriptures.

            You should be a little more careful of your spelling, unless you speak from experience :(

          • Henry says:

            entech, you have confused yourself. You are wrong again spinning in circles.

          • entech says:

            Me first: you are wrong again
            Your response: you are wrong again

            Projection – QED. You can’t be right, but you could try and be original.

          • Henry says:

            entech, it is a logical fallacy to accept only what jinks has to say based on her gender and supposed experience with pregnancy (her appeal to authority). It would be like saying she shouldn’t have an opinion on boy scouts because she was never a boy scout. She has however felt fit to offer material on the boy scouts. She wants it both ways. You haven’t properly addressed this fallacy and are seemingly endorsing it. Therefore, you have erred. Keep digging with your sophistry.

          • entech says:

            Again I must disagree, her statement to Michael was You have absolutely no clue what these women are going through and all but a handful make a very difficult decision after much deliberation., unless you use a different variant of the English language (and you often appear to do just that) she was talking about the decision to terminate or see through to full term. She did not indicate that she had ever had to make that decision merely saying that Michael could not put himself in the way of thinking that a pregnant woman considering abortion would be going through.

            Henry 1:22 now decides the universe is in need of his wisdom, so with a total change of subject starts talking of fallacy; of appealing to authority. All the lady said was unless you had been a pregnant woman yourself you could not know what it was like to be a pregnant woman and the thought processes involved. A simple experience related statement, no mention of any “legitimate experts” or anyone other than the woman having the experience – no authority mentioned, referred to and certainly not appealed to.

            2:27 Henry please note the statement was about terminating a pregnancy, whatever you may or may not know about a child being born (hate the expression birthing, so clinical, so impersonal) is totally irrelevant to the subject of abortion, I hate to point the obvious or to seem flippant but the procedure is designed to prevent a birth.

            In your desperation to make a point, in your usual cunning and sophisticated way you have changed the subject in mid thought, carried on “as if” you were talking about the same thing, a dishonest tactic. As for commenting on boy scouts, if it is assumed that she has a child involved in the scouting movement then she could have a valid voice and opinion otherwise not. I have no connection with the scouts, except for a brief membership at about 14 when I rapidly became bored, so have no voice in the discussion (except that I do not think gender preference should be the sole criterion).

            You haven’t properly addressed this fallacy nothing to address, the fallacy is in your head.

          • Henry says:

            my dear entech, you will have to be given a pass. Presumably you are still requiring meds and I can understand how things can be a little cloudy for you.

            You will have to read her comments in context of what she previously supplied. Besides that, she is indeed offering superior knowledge of the subject based on her position as the basis of discrediting what Mike had to say. Further, she poisons the well as a means to support her position when she mocks Mike’s religious beliefs.

            Take care my friend.

          • entech says:

            Whatever you say Henry.
            I do not take any medication, not even panadol. But I feel that I will need panadol or stronger if I continue , metaphorically, bashing my head against the brick wall of your infallibility.
            Henry for pope.

          • Jinx says:

            Thank YOU Entech!!!

            Henry, I have much more credentialing than my gender!!! Including professional qualifications!

          • Henry says:

            Jinx: “Including professional qualifications!”

            I missed that one with the ad hominems you used. I will have to remain more vigilent next time and compensate for that.

          • entech says:

            Ad Hominem, Henry you even got that wrong, tu quoque tu.
            Which reminds me lunch time and appointment with the cardiologist, relevance? only lunch really I think I will have a chicken sandwich, hen or quoque I don’t care.

          • Henry says:

            Poisoning the well is an ad hominem of which she engaged. You will have to read more carefully.

          • entech says:

            I have been through this topic several times and am sorry but I can see no well poisoning, show me the lines, please. Of course, you delicate little, love your neighbour (as long as I approve of everything) types are so upset when anyone disagrees in the slightest with your beliefs that even doubt is hateful (although no longer a capital offense, to your probable regret).

            Your constant (well, very frequent) use of “THE ATHEIST” or perhaps “THE FREETHINKER” as a sarcastic introduction is about as personal a well poisoning as is possible. A lot of what you come up with is ad homo_nem and yours views on women could be ad hetero_nem. Henry the hater, actually hate the disagreement, love the person who disagrees :lol: .

            Hypocrisy thy name is Henry. Henry who still can’t remember how to spell names correctly, or, perhaps finds it somehow humorous to deliberately pretend. I say deliberate because you are simply not as stupid as you pretend.

  6. Ed says:

    Jon 3:39 “Fourth, we could use any of the numerous definition other society’s use. There are society’s that use two years old so they don’t suffer as much grief when infants die.”

    Jon…although we have not met, I have to believe that if one of your children decided that their 20 month old child was just too much responsibility and had your grandchild killed, you might have an issue with that and in fact, it may be horrific for you. What you posted regarding an answer as to “when life starts” has to be without question the most ludicrous and dumbest response I’ve ever read on this subject. Are you drunk?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Ed 3:57 re: 20 month old child.

      Of course I would not consider such a thing myself, or, advise it as a policy–under the circumstances we now live in. We discussed it some months ago here. There are societies where this is the cultural norm, a child is not considered human until about two years old. Are these “immoral” people? No, the practice comes from centuries of experience where groups adopted practices that allowed their tribe/society to survive.

      Until about two generations ago, a group in our own United States, Eskimos, had a practice of killing babies and encouraging old people to kill themselves in order for the groups to survive where there was limited food.

      I say all this to point out the definition of when a human being starts is determined by history and practical circumstances. As I wrote, perfectly sober, is the most absurd definition anyone has come up with is that one fertilized cell is a human being.

      • Jinx says:

        Totally agree with Jon!

        Many indigenous women practiced infanticide on newborns if they became pregnant again before their child was 3-4 years old. If they were nursing 2 children it would put both children at risk and herself by pulling down her physical condition and inadequate nutrition for both the newborn and older toddler. Check out readings on the Yanamamo for one and Jon’s suggestion of the Eskimo and or Inuit……..survival of the tribe was the goal of the small band in a harsh environment.

    • Jinx says:

      Is this the new non science based school of ‘belief’ reasoning and logic Ed?

  7. Anne says:

    Jinx – Fantastic posts! It’s so interesting that the fate of women’s reproductive health in this country and our states is determined by men or that they think they should tell us what to do with our bodies.

    Another quick point from a previous discussion – RVW was established to make abortion safe. Before that point, it was done, just illegally and with great harm to women. More women die now from complications in childbirth than those that have abortions. In fact, abortion is not even on the top 100 list of things that kill women. If these laws go away, abortions will still happen.

    Also, the clinic here in Fargo has to tell patients things that are not medically true but are dictated by the legislature. Sioux Falls has to tell women that it could lead to suicide, etc. but there is no medical proof or evidence. Did you also know that they provide other reproductive health services to women? Yearly exams and such?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Anne 4:24 Great post. That clinics are forced to make untrue statements to patients is how ridiculous the anti politicans and their supporters have become.

    • Henry says:

      Anne:“In fact, abortion is not even on the top 100 list of things that kill women.”

      Add to that 25-30 million females who have died since RVW was passed. No problems whatsoever. The abort clinics are making female’s lives healthy! {sarcasm}

      • Jinx says:

        ?????? 25-30 million women have died from abortions since Roe V Wade was made law??? You are so wrong Henry, where did you ever find this fabrication?

        • Henry says:

          50-60 million abortions since 1973 divided by two to account for the female gender that was vacuumed out into a sink or flushed down a toilet and disposed of. Very easy math. You may want to check on your CEU vendor. They apparently need to step it up a bit. There are some good ones out there.

          • Jinx says:

            Shows what little you know Henry, more males are conceived than females. Male embryo’s are miscarried, stillborn and die with in 1 year after birth (including preemies). There is volumes of research across disciplines showing that male anything (humans, plant, animals, etc) are less likely to survive than females. Female infants and children are more like to survive serious illnesses and diseases than males.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Jinx 10:52 re; males less likely to survive.

            I can see you know a lot about this field, Jinx. Glad you are here to sort out some of the stuff posted.

          • Henry says:

            Jinks, the range I offered with two significant digits takes that all into account. Feel free to split hairs if you must, but that is surpising after your initial response of not grasping the large numbers of females that have died since RVW. That speaks for itself.

    • Jinx says:

      Thank YOU Anne & Jon! Anne, you are indeed correct about some of the information state legislatures dictate to abortion providers….its is medically incorrect and/or not based on medical or scientific based fact!! Of further interest, is that crisis pregnancy or life centers operate under the same non medical or science based based philosophy!

      In fact, I have personal knowledge that some of these centers will deceive a vulnerable client who expresses an intent to get an abortion if her pregnancy test is positive…….they will tell this girl her test is negative so far but to come back later for a retest. The centers strategy is to delay the person knowledge of pregnancy until it is to late for a 1st trimester abortion.

      Yes the clinic in Fargo as well as Planned Parenthood clinics that do abortions also annual exams with screenings for breast and cervical cancer, STD testing and treatment and colposcopy services for abnormal paps smears at a much reduced price. Most of the Planned Parenthood clinics in Minnesota are for these basic services and not abortions.

      As I have said, I do have professional and research qualifications as well as practical experience to speak on the subjects that I comment on. I don’t pull things out the air or twist them to suit my own personal views. I leave that to Henry and Ed and others of their ilk.

    • Wakiza says:

      Thank you, Anne, for your post. The legislature has no business dictating what doctors communicate to their patients. Especially when that information is unequivocally false – abortions do not cause mental harm or breast cancer. This has been disproven.

      For example, the current bill SB2302 limits reproductive endocrinologists from transferring no more than 2 embryos in an IVF procedure. Uhhh… where’d you come up with that number? From your ass? The ASRM has pretty clear guidelines for how many embryos should be transferred based on embryo quality grading and maternal factors such as age and overall health. Why not let the trained professional decide instead of an English teacher?

      The legislature just needs to butt out of women’s health issues and let that be a private, truthful conversation between her and her medical provider. Clearly English teachers aren’t qualified to direct medical decisions.

      • Henry says:

        Wakiza: “The legislature has no business dictating what doctors communicate to their patients.”

        That would be false. The reason is ethics. Society determines the ethics for its professions. It is very right for the legislature to take an active role in regulating ethics. Bravo to them. Sometimes being the most efficient or having the maximum effect does not equate to an ethical situation.

        P.S. Why the cutting down of poor English teachers to make your point? I do not think they have caused you any harm. Perhaps there is some “history” there.

  8. Wakiza says:

    But, I digress. I applaud these women for sharing their very personal stories. We need more of that, so that christians understand that women are people, too, and should be afforded full rights as such.

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