Boy Scouts and Values.

Many of us have been involved with Boy Scouts.  It is sad to see this great organization falling into dogma not good for it’s boys nor their country.  The most disappointing is the prohibition of gay parents from leadership rolls in the organization. It also has a requirement for a belief in “god”.

These and other issues would not be so bad were it not the organization bills itself mostly as secular.  It is not a secular organization, but a religious one.

Some say its anti gay position is only temporary–when it is apparent the views are out of the mainstream, it will change.  This is unlikely.

The reason it is unlikely is money.  I’ve read the largest source of money for Boy Scouts of America are fundamentalist churches.  One would surmise Boy Scout views will be like those of fundamentalists.  Indeed, they are.

To be “morally upright” as Boy Scouts are supposed to be, it seems like honesty would be high on the list.  If Boy Scouts of America were not honest it would state clearly, “We are a religious organization.

So much it good about the Boy Scouts, it is disappointing to see it espouse prejudice and religious dogma.  Projects, merit badges and the rest of the program have obviously stood the test of time.

The Boy Scout program could be every bit as successful without social and religious indoctrination.  It would also project honesty from an organization which always claimed it as a central tenet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bennett-l-gershman/boy-scouts-gays_b_1698948.html?utm_hp_ref=culture&ir=Culture

 

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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33 Responses to Boy Scouts and Values.

  1. Henry says:

    Jon:“If Boy Scouts of America were not honest it would state clearly, “We are a religious organization.”

    Cass Clay Creamery is a dairy organization. They do sell orange juice. However, Cass Clay Creamery is not an orchard. Cass Clay Creamery is honestly a dairy organization.

  2. Henry says:

    “The most disappointing is the prohibition of gay parents from leadership rolls in the organization.”

    Gay parent? How common is this? 1 in 100,000?

    Why would a homosexual want to get involved with someone else’s boy?

    • Barbara says:

      “Why would a homosexual want to get involved with someone else’s boy?”
      Following that line of thought (and I use the term loosely), why would a heterosexual man (a teacher, coach, etc) want to get involved with someone else’s girl? I find the word “involved” to be offensive in the way you’ve used it here.

      • Henry says:

        The term “messing around” in lieu of “involved” came to mind, but I chose not to use it as some people would be too sensitive to that. I guess it didn’t matter.

        Nothing can be right. They will always be oppressed even after all special rights have been granted.

        • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

          Hello Ann, smallest of all minorities is indeed yourself.

          Not really an original idea here. You do bring up a good point though. If you can’t make rules based on race then they are are also applicable to sex(gender, persuasion). Why they think they are different is their own ignorance to the facts.

  3. Boy Scouts of America is a private organization as far as I know.
    They can espouse any values they want to…..back to your cage,Jon!

    • Avatar of opinionated opinionated says:

      buffalogal, you are a breath of fresh air. JL, you are the opposite.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “They can espouse any values they want to…..”
      If you believe this then why don’t you support the freethinkers and their values? I hardly believe you are so black/white on this issue. In fact, I think if a hideous idea of racism where to be perpetrated by BSoA you would not back up such “values” hell by you own remark you are total fine with such private organizations like the “KKK” and other hate groups. You may wish to rethink such a hasty statement.

  4. June says:

    Sally Ride = Nothing but a CLASS ACT !!

    • Henry says:

      Sally Ride – class act, pioneer, exemplary, monogamous homosexual.

      Spouse
      Steven Hawley
      (m. 1982–1987; divorced)
      Partner
      Tam O’Shaughnessy
      (1985–2012; Ride’s death)

  5. Avatar of opinionated opinionated says:

    Since I believe the majority of the queers in society have mental deficiencies or disorders this is a logical and well founded rule for the boy scouts organization. Too many unstable people turn to queerdom in order to gain attention not unlike the many who choose to go overboard with tattoos or piercings. They’re craving attention for whatever reason and will do any obnoxious act to get it. I’m proud the Boy Scouts of America stand by their moral values.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “I believe…. ”

      Belief = Hearsay

      Go ahead and believe what ever you want, just don’t expect me to believe it with proper date and evidence.

      “I’m proud the Boy Scouts of America stand by their moral values.” Rather egocentric to be “Proud” of your own moral beliefs….. if you can’t tell the difference between “Proud to be an America” and “Proud to believe in sky fairies”. Then I have wasted my type.

  6. Bob says:

    If they are gay, how did they become a parent?

    The only way to become a parent within the human species is to unite the sex cells of a male and a female. There is no such thing in this world today as human gay reproduction. Even homosexuals admit that the plumbing isn’t right. Physically speaking, they simply weren’t made that way.

    As far as the boy scouts being a religious organization simply because they acknowledge the existence of God, where is that reasoning heading? Is the United States a religious state since the pledge of allegiance (and other things) acknowledges the existence of God?

    Let’s not destroy the wall of separation between church and state simply because we are angry that the boy scouts oppose perversion and crime.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Bob 2:40 Thanks for your first time comment.

      I’d only reply the U. S. has God in its pledge. It does not prevent people from belonging if the don’t believe in the god.

      • Bob says:

        Are you merely defending the right of atheists to be American citizens, which is admirable, or are you an atheist yourself?

        If the latter, I would appreciate an explanation for the points raised in the 1976 Science article which documented U/Pb ratios in coalified wood samples from Jurassic, Triassic, and Eocene strata which showed that that strata was laid down roughly simultaneously much more recently than evolutionists assume.

        An explanation for the high retention rates for Pb and He in zircons from Precambrian granites as published in 1982 and 1984 in Science and Geophysical Research Letters would also be helpful. While the rock samples had been assumed by evolutionists to be 1.5 billion years old, the measured retention rates indicated an age of thousands of years.

        • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

          An Early Design Earther ? Nice…..

          Your Article you reference:
          Radiohalos in Coalified Wood: New Evidence Relating to the Time of Uranium Introduction and Coalification

          FYI: You can’t use Science to prove your psuedo science that is just hypocritical.

          Cause if you do:
          “Polonium Haloes” Refuted
          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

          You get peer reviewed and basically kicked outta real Science forever.

          I am sadden by our education system as they did not describe the difference between Evolutionary Biologists and freaking Geologists.

          Next time I have a physics question I will make sure to ask a history professor.

          • Bob says:

            Demosthenes,

            Why did you provide a link to the apologetic web site TalkOrigins, and then state, “You get peer reviewed ….” Why didn’t you provide a link to a peer reviewed journal instead?

            Note also that at that link Baillieul leads one to think that Po-210 rings are indistinguishable from Rn-222 rings, when it has been a published fact for decades that this is not true for halos in fluorite. Was this an attempt at deception by Baillieul?

            Note also that Baillieul cites Gentry’s 1968 article on fossil alpha recoil track analysis, and yet proposes a Rn diffusion hypothesis even though that analysis falsified such a hypothesis. No where does Baillieul address the critical problem of a lack of fossil alpha recoil tracks.

            I see only two possibilities: Deception or ignorance. Regardless, he should never be cited as an authority on these issues, and those who do cite him show that they don’t even understand the scientific concepts at issue in a discussion of these phenomena.

            So based on your last comments, you reject the concepts out there of cosmic evolution, and evolution of our solar system?

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            “Why didn’t you provide a link to a peer reviewed journal instead?” I quickly linked what took 2 seconds to find on Google, My point, as you clearly have missed, is the Gentry’s finding are being refuted today and by more than just an ‘apologist’. Several Geologist have come forward stating gentry is a waste of time. Again, you can’t use real Science to prove pseudo science thus Gentry’s quagmire.

            Lets just get you on the record are we talking thousands or billions?

            Are you asserting that Gentry has not been basically kicked out of Science?

  7. Stan says:

    I worked with the BSA as a scout master and a camp range director for a total of 8 years, very rewarding but it can make you paranoid. The Scouts have some very good rules concerning two deep leadership and very carefully walks you through how NOT to get accused of sexual abuse and I was very thankful for that. But it also made you paranoid. Not that You would be caught, but that someone would make false accusations.

    This is one area where a person has to prove their innocence if accused and win or lose in court, your reputation will be destroyed. Like any organization there is politics and cliques and there are people who will use very devise to win, even lies and slander. I was fortunate that we had had strong leadership before I became Scout Master and it carried through my terms of service.

    This brings up a question I have always had and since none of the homosexuals I knew had an interest in being a Scout leader I ask it here. Why would you put yourself in a situation where it would be so easy to be accused?

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “Why would you put yourself in a situation where it would be so easy to be accused?”…. because your a great teacher, you have valuable knowledge, unique life experiences, are possibly best Scout Leader that ever lived and simply not do what for all intents and purposes you were born to do just not to be accused by some bigoted father isn’t reason enough.

      I am sure every time you see an obese person walking in front of McDonald’s you make the same poor assumed accusations.

      Also, what would a homosexual fear being accused of as a Scout Leader? Or are you implying being homosexual also mean you partake in pedophilia at your whimsy. What kind of person would think such a thing? Oh yeah, an IDIOT.

      • Stan says:

        You have a reading comprehension problem Demosthenes or you ar all of 18 years old. I was very careful to NOT accuse anyone of being a pedophile. Since you don’t understand what I am saying you probably haven’t been in the Scouts in a leadership position and responsible not only for the children in the group AND defacto every move made by any adult attending a meeting or activity. Neither have very many homosexuals i guess either. I even admitted that there WERE possible bigots which can make life hell for ANYONE but being homosexual just makes it easier.

        Jon, I do understand that they want to help. I just hope that they realize that if they do get in as leaders, it isn’t all “Follow Me Boys” Fred McMurry. There are parents who will ruin anybody who stands in their way.

        • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

          Come now Stan, what could a homosexual scout leader be accused of? Can you answer? You did all but say it……I comprehend fine. You are not “saying” but just “saying”.

          “being homosexual just makes it easier.” So does being fat, being old, being stupid, being a felon, etc.. As I said, that is not reason enough.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Stan 3:11 “Why would you put yourself in a situation where it would be so easy to be accused?”
      Would not the answer be because you had a son and wanted to help out? You, yourself, wanted to help out, others do as well.

  8. Xavier says:

    I’m going to be straight forward: this article is completely bogus. The main arguments and opinions in this article have no basis in fact and are completely false.

    ” I’ve read the largest source of money for Boy Scouts of America are fundamentalist churches.”

    Joe Schmo could have written this in a book for heaven’s sake. Where is the citation? If there is none, this statement must be considered false. I did a little digging myself on the Scouting website, where the annual financial report for the Boy Scouts of America is publicly posted to find the true numbers. Contrary to what was “read”, Boy Scout “sales” accounted for more than twice the revenue of all charitable donations. The entire report can be read here: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/media/2011reporttotreasurer.pdf

    “These and other issues would not be so bad were it not the organization bills itself mostly as secular. It is not a secular organization, but a religious one.”

    How can the Boy Scouts of America be defined as a religious organization? The Federal Government and none of the 50 states define the Boy Scouts as a “religious organization.” In addition, the Boy Scouts are not chartered by any religion or religious group. Furthermore, the “About” page on Scouting.org, states the organization’s purpose.

    “The Boy Scouts of America is one of the nation’s largest and most prominent values-based youth development organizations. The BSA provides a program for young people that builds character, trains them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develops personal fitness.
    For over a century, the BSA has helped build the future leaders of this country by combining educational activities and lifelong values with fun. The Boy Scouts of America believes — and, through over a century of experience, knows — that helping youth is a key to building a more conscientious, responsible, and productive society.”

    Nowhere in this statement is religion mentioned.

    Here is one last statement that is false but also has an interesting paradox.

    “To be ‘morally upright’ as Boy Scouts are supposed to be, it seems like honesty would be high on the list. If Boy Scouts of America were not honest it would state clearly, ‘We are a religious organization.’”

    First off, this statement is completely invalid since the Boy Scouts are not a religious organization. Secondly the phrase “it seems like honesty would be high on the list” is curiously ironic. The twelve points of the Scout Law read:

    “A Scout is:
    TRUSTWORTHY,
    Loyal,
    Helpful,
    Friendly,
    Courteous,
    Kind,
    Obedient,
    Cheerful,
    Thrifty,
    Brave,
    Clean,
    and Reverent.”

    If you type the word “trustworthy” onto Microsoft Word and search for synonyms, the word “honest” comes up. Sounds like this article could learn a few things from Microsoft Word and the Scout Law.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Xavior 4:04 Thank you for taking time go make this long post. I would only reply the anti gay policy of Boy Scouts of America has a religious basis and well as, of course, its reference to God. These are the hallmarks of a religious organization.

  9. Michael Ross says:

    Dogma, predjudice, indoctrination – some key words in Jon’s post today. These words he assigns to anyone or any organization that actually believe in or stand for something. To Jon’s way of thinking you can believe in anything you want, as long as you don’t REALLY believe it.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “To Jon’s way of thinking you can believe in anything you want, as long as you don’t REALLY believe it.”

      Here I think I can fix it for Jon.

      To Jon’s way of thinking you can believe in anything you want.

  10. It is always amusing that this blogger says that he will stop bashing Christians when they stop their pushy ways or “advertising” their faith. If this blog is not pushy about atheism or proseletizing for atheism I will “eat my hat” or “be a monkey’s uncle” and that is really hard for a woman to be an uncle.
    It is hypocrisy of the highest order.

    • Doubtful says:

      You got that right Kay. In this case the BSA has stated that it is not their place to introduce scouts to homosexuality and the ensuing discussions. That seems reasonable to me. Combined with the fact that they are a private organization I fail to see what business it is of people who are not involved with scouting. Do progressives really want this to be a nation that shuns organizations and businesses because they do not hold the same beliefs you do?

  11. That is exactly what they(progressives) want.
    Look at the brouhaha in Chicago and Boston over Chick-fil-a…..Rahm Emanuel says that that company does not stand for Chicago values…what a heap of horse dung! What are Chicago values anyway? Signing up dead people to vote? stuffing the ballot boxes so Progressive-Libs- Socialists will win?
    Having gangs of young people threaten and kill each other and also innocent citizens on a nightly basis? Those are the real “chicago values”. Rahm is so busy dissing Chick Fil A that he has no time for real chicago problems. The ACLU has come out on Chick Fil A’s side so that ought to put a damper on the Libs whining about what the CEO has as his PERSONAL values. Any further action will go to court so fast that you will not even be able to say chicken sandwich…or Jack Robinson.

  12. Stan says:

    One day they are blasting the BSA for not protecting children, the next they are blasting them for trying to protect the children. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. If they would help write the policy that would do both it may work, but they don’t want to do that they want to complain.

  13. Avatar of opinionated opinionated says:

    Some people just simply do not understand basic cognizant thought. You should typically consider not going where you are not welcome. Let’s see, how about am American in Iran? Or someone white in SE Chicago back streets. Hope I haven’t used too big of words for Demosthenes or loser lindgren to follow. If you willingly and knowingly go where you are not wanted you undoubtedly are risking if not flat out looking for trouble. Stick a queer in a boy scout camp founded on instilling moral values and you’re going to have a clash….dooeeaaah? What part of “Queers Not Welcome Here” do you not understand?

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