Take Down That Cross!

In San Diego, CA, is a 45 foot high cross put there in 1954.  It was eventually turned into a “Veterans Memorial” on U. S. Government land.

The problem with using a cross to honor dead veterans is the cross is a Christian symbol and not all dead veterans were Christians.  For 20 years Jewish and atheist groups have been trying to make that point, but the cross is still there.

Religious fanatics within the U. S Congress have carried out several maneuvers to keep the cross up.  One was to take control of the property in 2006 so taxpayer funds could be used for legal bills.

The cross was approved in one federal court but that was overturned by a U. S. Court of Appeals.  The Court of Appeals decision was sent to the Supreme Court which refused to hear the case.

That should be the end of it, the cross should be taken down.  But, defenders of the cross say they will start some new proceeding to keep it there.

Those who want to insert more religion into our government and those of us who want secular government are locked in a epic battle that will go on for years to come.   There are other crosses and there are Ten Commandment monuments like the one here in Fargo all on public land and all symbolizing efforts to make government appear more Christian.

My sense is the “passion element” has shifted.  Religion used have the most passion.  Now, it is the other side.

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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103 Responses to Take Down That Cross!

  1. Henry says:

    The cross has been honoring dead veterans for 58 years. In that it spans a few generations and is quite historical.

    I guess the current mindset would want it taken down and replaced with a block of granite made in China (think MLK) and installed by illegal aliens. Let’s not disturb the veteran’s families with the embarrassing atheist ideas of desecrating cultural memorials to the dead. Very rude.

    • Paul says:

      Well, hello there … this fellow has managed to include his racism (MLK), xenophobia (China), and political intolerance (aliens) all in one sentence … in that sense he’s one smart fella. He might have sneaked in something offensive to women … oh well, perhaps next time.

      • Henry says:

        This will assuage your ignorance of granite/mlk:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MLK_Memorial#Design_choices

        Not racist, but rather based on reality. Some dead veterans circa 1954 have fought the chinese in Korea. Our genius president would have the audacity to honor them with a chinese made memorial. The audacity of hope, perhaps?

        Political intolerance/xenophobia? The law is the law. About time someone other than arpio mans up and executes the law.

    • entech says:

      God not man made Granite, and very cleverly made it to seem to be very old, when we all know it can’t be more than 6567 years old.

      • Emily says:

        Why the world is 4.3 billion years old, eh? Who said God created the world 6000 years ago. All I know is 6 days. Never said a date entech!

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Emily 2:18 “Who said God created the world 6000 years ago>”

          The young earthers.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism

        • entech says:

          There you go Emily, now you know, Read Michael’s posts and leads and see where being a “REAL” Christian takes you, it is in scripture it must be true. After you have finished, read another bit of writing on the subject:
          It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. Augustine of Hippo, The literal Meaning of Genesis.

          • Emily says:

            Yeah it is true if it is in scripture. Why not? I am a Christian. Ignore my ego k! That was a long time ago that I said that. I was kind of making fun of atheism by saying that I hate religion. I should say I hats how religion is trying so hard when God is right there!

          • Emily says:

            Oh and Michael’s post about how we should have Christ in our documents is correct. I believe that we would have far greater successes if we indoctrinate Christ in our constitution or even better, maybe it should be a requirement to read Bible in schools. I was literally praying that evolution lie would stop and we could enjoy life. If you don’t know, then you cant say my ideas are incorrect!

          • entech says:

            Confusion reigns supreme, how old is the earth, how old the universe, is it a biblical age or a cosmic age. Is the scripture true in every respect, every last word and comma, or can you pick the bits you like.

            Emily @ 3:54 “true if in scripture”, “that was a long time ago” (two weeks is a long time?),”making fun of atheism”
            you are becoming less than consistent.

            @ 4:05 “indoctrinate” is an unfortunate choice of words, Bible in schools, what a good idea, when I was at school in England (emigrated to Australia later) we did have bible study, in fact we had morning assembly five days a week, this was a brief Christian service, with hymn singing etc and school announcements, at boarding school this was complimented with a march to the local church for the morning service; village church only a thousand years old, nothing really – but once a month we had a special treat and went to a beautiful little church, old English, with beautifully carved wooden nave, separate carved prayer boxes to keep the peasants away from the gentry and one of the finest pre-Norman fonts you could ever see. Good idea bible and church architecture should be compulsory subjects, look at me!

  2. What can be said about the religious fanaticism that make up the movement of Athiests? The religious fervor of Athiests to remove all other religions and their symbols is fanaticism of another kind; there is not tolerance among Athiests that I have noticed.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Buffalogal 12:52 “..fervor of Atheistis to remove all other religion and their symbols..”

      You did not note it is removal from publid property. And, the enthusiasm to do this comes from reading the Constitution.

    • Paul says:

      Ms. Buffalo … we’re really, really uptight about spelling … “Athiests” just doesn’t work for us. Makes us crazy. Makes you look … uh … not so very smart. But smartness ain’t everything.

      • Henry says:

        Speak for yourself. Atheist/atheist defenders make excuses for mis-spelling:

        http://redriverfreethinkers.areavoices.com/2012/04/14/why-so-many-snakes-in-religion/#comment-33505

        • entech says:

          Hey, I had forgotten that one, deny all you like you must have the best database of trivia to support your nonsense that the world has known.
          And while being picky you spelled “delusional” as “dilussional”. Be sensible, more grammatical and spelling mistakes creep into blog posting than anywhere else I have seen, it is the nature of the beast. in this post I was responding to some rubbish from Wanna and Henry, I was actually making excuses for blogging in general. It is true, after you have pressed on [post comment] and see it on the screen you see mistakes you would not normally make.
          But accuracy and relevance are immaterial to a rhetorician of the standard aimed for by Henry. Truth is irrelevant to making a ‘telling’ point.
          Henry you are truly full of it.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Entech;….”rubbish rom Wanna…” I understand your position. ” A stumbling block for the Jew, and foolishness for the Greek”. The “Greek” being the unbelieving non-Jew. That be you.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            “rubbish (F)rom Wanna. Rubbish = foolishness.

  3. Emily says:

    If you did that, that is taking away religious freedom. There is a line Jon. Ten commandments is one thing, but the cross! I would be a cross in everbodys car just to see who would shoot me first. It is clear that is is complete BS. Atheists are the same here as anywhere else. In the end times…

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Emily 1:10 “that is taking away religious freedom.”

      The Supreme Court sees it exactly the opposite. When government endorses a religion by passing laws funding advertisements on public property (the cross and 10 Commandments advertise Christianity) it is telling people to worship one religion and not others. The “others” are now considered outsiders and are at a disadvantage in society. Polling shows the public would be less likely to vote for an atheist than for a gay.

      • Emily says:

        If other religions want to show their symbols, then fine. Jon taking away a cross for Christians is as ridiculous as taking away all your what some call “logic books”. Others religions have as much right to show their faith with the cross or without. Sometimes it maks no sense. Soliders are the ones who gave us this freedom, not a document. Lives, millions, have been sacrificed for you and I. God bless them and their family. I would put a cross right next to their tombstone. Jews get the star of David on theirs. Do you assume that they have been through enough to escape your words or are you just mad at Christians? I don’t see you talking about anyone else’s faith but that is okay because as Christians we know that we are blessed when we are insulted. I start to feel like you would be happier if the truth were not so hard. Lord, give me strength to get through the fire! I will stumble, but not fall you faithful, wonderful God Jesus. You have taken my sins and gave me life! Amen!!!!!!!

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Emily 2;12 “If other religions want to show the symbols, then fine.”

          But, Emily, other symbols are not allowed. At least not on the Fargo City Hall mall. We Freethinkers asked to install a monument next to the Ten Commandments with a phrase from a document called, The Treaty Of Tripoli, signed by President John Adams and approved by Congress. We planned to pay for the monument and installation ourselves. The Fargo City Commission would not allow us to have ours–only the Ten Commandmentst with the Christian cross is allowed there on public property.

          • Emily says:

            That is because its Fargo. The same people who voted down measure 3 and are opposed to everything their suburd does. Other parts of the world respect all religion, like France. They put crosses on Christian soliders, star of David on Jews and atheists family’s have no problem with it!

  4. MarkyMark says:

    So what motivates an atheist to get passionate about believing in nothing?

    • Paul says:

      Intelligence? Education? Critical thinking? Absence of bigotry?

      • Michael Ross says:

        Elitism, brainwashing, brainwashing, arrogance

        • Emily says:

          Lol right on Michael! That is along the lines I was going but I have told them enough! Cant say we didn’t warn them! Bless you!

        • entech says:

          Never thought you would admit it :)

          • Emily says:

            Yeah right, you knew all along (I can tell)! I cant believe you find forgiveness offensives. Would you rather have me say I will stone you or that you are going to hell. Didn’t think so!!

          • entech says:

            The real offense is that you consider that there is anything to forgive. Given that I think the attributes Michael mentioned are actually descriptive of the entire christian attitude to the rest of the universe.

        • pk says:

          True. There is a complicated web of fake science and worldview perpetrated by governments, foundations and the media. I hope there will be time for repentance at the 2nd resurrection, because these people really are committed and are doomed if not.

  5. Michael Ross says:

    Atheists and Jews in S.D. want to tare down a cross. Is this how they thank the soldiers and there families for their sacrifice? Jon wants to tare down the 10 Commandments monument at city hall even though the people of Fargo want it left there. Is this how he thanks the people that elected him mayor for four terms?

    https://secure.forumcomm.com/?publisher_ID=1&article_id=199063

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Michael 1:58 “..even though the people of Fargo want it left there.”

      We don’t actually know if that is true. There was a vote requested but the City Commission did not allow it to happen. Some elected Commissioners have wanted it removed, I recall four different Commissioners.

      • Emily says:

        I am a citizen of Fargo and I want it left there. One voice matters! It would be like erasing all your history at NDSU and saying Jon Lindgren didn’t work here because people found him offensive! Is that justified? No. So just because some are offended does not mean everyone is. Close your eyes if you don’t want to see. My guess is you would put up a sign that promoted atheism which offends me I guess acorrdind to entech!

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      @ Michael Ross June 27, 2012 at 1:58 am
      “the people of Fargo want it left there.”

      Speak for yourself, I for one do not want it there.

      First, I don’t believe public land should be used to support one faith over another. Second, the majority of those ten commandments aren’t being followed anyways.

  6. Buzz Marick says:

    Jon loves to stir the Pot.he doesn’t realize he’s just another Turd in the punchbowl.

    • entech says:

      Thanks I had forgotten where that one came from, duly noted for future reference. Truly stimulating contribution to any discussion.

      • Emily says:

        I agree with Buzz. It looks like Jon now plays if you not for me your against me too! But I tell you, Jesus is really the only truth. It will be nice when Jesus comes back, no more sin and no more disbelief. I would start to turn back to. GOD IF I WERE YOU ENTECH! Not much time left!

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Emily 1:07 “I agree with Buzz.”

          You agree I am a “turb in a punchbowl”? Perhaps a little instruction on appropriate language in posts would be in order. :) (Really, it’s OK to write that here.)

        • entech says:

          The more you write the closer you come to confirming Mac’s diagnosis. The question is going to be are you an atheist trying to make Christians look bad, or, a Christian taunting atheists by being deliberately extreme, or, perhaps a couple of first year students having a bit of fun.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            I am going with an idiot through and through.

          • Emily says:

            Maybe? I don’t know! Your implying this is a prank? I ain’t an atheist, and I’m not making Christians look bad. Of course, you would think that! Only you and demothenes have ever been so confusing with your comments. Josh does not comment here because he has a job. I really wish he would though. Now you gave me a good idea. I forgot, I do have lots of. Christian friends that could support me.

          • Emily says:

            Demothenes, I think you are a character, you really think that I am an idiot? I would like to see what my atheist friends would say about you. Judged by your own kind. Since you think it is fun to judge others, why don’t you start your own blogs. Your not very popular amongst your peers bro!

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @ Emily June 27, 2012 at 2:24 pm

            “Josh does not comment here because he has a job.” – This just sounds Redneck to me, replace “Josh” with Cletus and that really does the trick.

            I would encourage you to bring you Christian brethren here , to a freethinkers blog. They can’t all be like you can they?

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @ Emily June 27, 2012 at 2:28 pm

            “you really think that I am an idiot?” Yes.

            “why don’t you start your own blogs.” First, why am I starting multiple blogs and not just one blog? Second, you ask “why” but end your sentence with a “.” is this suppose to even be a question? or a statement? Again, more stupidity from you. To answer your possible question though, starting a blog and keeping it up is rather a lot of work and I simple don’t have the time to do it and wiping the floor with your smug ignorant comments.

            I highly doubt you have any atheist friends.

            “Your not very popular amongst your peers bro!” Not that I am concerned about my popularity amongst my peers but, how do you even know this to be true?

            I am starting to believe Mac as well, your comments fluctuate so much it is as if you are an actor having trouble staying in character.

          • Emily says:

            Demothenes, if I was an actor I would not use my real name and age, I do have many atheist friends and they think I am fine person. Swing your fists (words) at me but I can still see, you should just ignore me

  7. ATXGiant says:

    Just curious and this is a serious question? What do you really gain by getting the Ten Commandments and Crosses removed? Why not live and let live. Are the 10 commandments that offensive? If so just think of them as 10 rules to live by to be a decent caring person. I just see this as a huge waste of time and money, some of these land marks have been at their locations for a lot of years why is it so bad now.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      ATX 8:34 “Why not live and let live.”

      That’s a frequent question asked of us. It is even asked by some unbelievers who think there are better ways to advancing the cause of secular government.

      One way to answer it is, what if a little Hindu girl, born in Fargo, was skipping along the sidewalk on the way to our Public Library and passed by the 10C monument (which is a few steps from the Library). She stopped to read it. Her conclusion would be she is not really wanted in this town. There are a lot of fine Hindu physicans and professors in Fargo, I want them all here, for my own personal health. I want the little girl to grown up and live here.

      In addition, the 10C is just plain offensive to many of us.

      There are more 10C cases before the Supreme Court than any other topic. It is a national debate. We are certain our 10C is there for a religious reason. We are presenting the explanation as to why we think that–we think we will win that argument.

      Thanks for posting. Do post again.

    • Emily says:

      I agree. Jon should maybe be more tolerant. Jon, you are lucky God only chose 10 for you to live by because it seems rules are overated to atheists. Nothing good could ever help us? Don’t murder, don’t steal, love your parents. Simple rules. Look at this city compared to one that has no ten commandments and see the increase in crime. Jesus narrows it down to two: love God and love thy neigbor!

      • Emily says:

        Jon if a Hindu was here spreading her ideas too you would shoot them down just like everything else. You must be different in real life then on the Internet. If she was talking to you, you would disagree with her. So how does that work? Does everything offend you? Or just Christ?

      • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

        Emily 1:13 “Look at this City compared to one that has no ten commandments and see the increase in crime.”

        Emily, you present “facts” here I’ve never heard before. I don’t think West Fargo or Dilworth has a 10C monument on their City Hall property. Now, I will not feel safe in either city.

      • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

        @ Emily June 27, 2012 at 1:13 pm

        You are exceeding the bounds of stupidity every day.

        “Look at this city compared to one that has no ten commandments and see the increase in crime.”

        How can you even say that, that statement is utter hog wash and very dim indeed.

        • Emily says:

          I can say about the same with you. I’m sorry, I didn’t know that you are perfect and never sin. Just as Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. My posts sound jugdemental to you but in reality, its not about you. Atheism is what I am condemning, not atheists. Go on, show the world what you really think. You use real words like cuss words to show how smart you are rather than say idiot and stupid. I have never met such a closed minded person who has 0 respect and zero tolerance.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            “I’m sorry, I didn’t know that you are perfect and never sin.” – I have not claimed this what so ever but, if it were true by your own logic I can be casting “stones” all day without reprise as you have claimed I am ” perfect and never sin.”.

            “I have never met such a closed minded person who has 0 respect and zero tolerance.” Pleased to meet you. I will freely tell you what ever I want, thanks to the country I live in and not the sky fairy who demands reverence and respect.

            “You use real words like cuss words to show how smart you are rather than say idiot and stupid.” Examples, please.

        • Emily says:

          And also, if you are smarter then I, then tell me what doctrine means in an acrostic poem
          d
          O
          C
          T
          R
          I
          N
          E

          Go ahead. You should see me sarcasmim in my 1:18 pm post silly guy

      • entech says:

        Emily where do get 10 from, that is just one little baby list, there are more like 600, problem is after Paul and friends had been rejected by Judaism they desperately needed some followers, so they simplified, chopped most of them out, removed dietary rules (pork was pretty popular) and said you don’t need to take a knife to your pride and joy any more – genital mutilation was anathema to the Greeks.

        The main problem is the the commands relating to God, the love and honour etc. atheists shouldn’t care they are doubtful about the existence anyway, but it would be offensive to many other belief systems, probably starting with those who hold native American beliefs and they were there first.

        The golden rule is widespread, perhaps the essence of the story about rabbi Hillel could be used, When asked to explain the Torah while standing on one leg, he said,”Don’t do to others that which you would find hateful if done to you; the rest is commentary”.
        Forgive the comment on local affairs, not a taxpayer so no rights, just if you want something generic and not offensive to any one, this could work.

        • Emily says:

          Jesus already covered that entech. That is the golden rule. Love God, love your neigbors

          • entech says:

            Don’t do to others that which you would find hateful if done to you
            This what I had in mind, not being specific to your God, other people have other Gods just as real as yours. Don’t restrict it to your neighbors, be inclusive.

            See how generic it can be if we all aimed for something like that we could post it every where with out complaint.

          • Emily says:

            Demothenes I must say I found your redneck comment to be funny. In fact I laughed! So, I do have a sense of humor and I am glad you had fun making a poem about doctrine. I enjoy your view. I apologies for calling you a fool. I read the entire New Testament and found some clues. Now I can act better! Funny how everybody is against me yet deep down they have the same ideas. So yeah, Cletus is at work and I am the old house wife that found a hilarious site to read lol!

  8. AtxGiant says:

    I just have a tough time with this. Are we better off by removing these monuments? I feel we should keep them maybe not for religious reason but historical reasons. I am a believer but I don’t think people like Emily are helping the cause. Maybe if relgious people would stop shoving their veiws in others people’s faces maybe non believers would me more content to leave things be. Just like I don’t care if you are gay or not just stop shoving it in my face. Go about your business and don’t involve me.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “Are we better off by removing these monuments?” Yes.

      What historical reason is there to have these ten commandments up? I see no significance in a historical sense that these need to stay on Government land. If you wish to save them and place them in a museum that is something different but leaving them there goes against the First amendment in the Bill of Rights. It establishes that this government is a Christian one and that sir/ma’am , is infringing on my rights and yours(if you live in the U.S.).

      If you don’t see a religious icon sitting on Government property as establishing a religion then that is the problem. Not whether or not it is a Christian icon or a Hindu one but that is is ANY religious icon.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      ATx 3:17 “I feel we should keep them maybe not for religious reasons but historical reasons.”

      I get the impression you have not read up on the 10C cases, yet your instincts are very correct. The Supreme Court has divided up these cases according to certain details, some are removed, some are allowed to stay. Most have to go through a long and arduous court process to decide which are which, but that’s the way it is.

      Monuments which were placed there for a civic purpose, not a religious one, are allowed to stay. Those which are displayed as a part historical display about religion or law can stay. Ones which have a religious purpose are removed. We intend to show the one here in Fargo is there for a clearly religious purpose. That makes it UnConstitutional.

    • Emily says:

      Hi. I just want to remind you that we, as Christians, face very high insults, mocked and anything else they do! Jesus said, feed my sheep. Now with all due respect I must ask, how am I to go about spreading the gospel? It may sound offensive, but I am very much a believer that Jesus Christ took our sins away at the cross and wants the world to know. Now, Jon, entech, and Demosthenes pick on me a lot but don’t let them tempt you into thinking I am racist. I welcome all to come. You should see how many Muslims and atheists I have converted. What should I do to show them? Jesus said “I am the only way to get to the father “. You must realize that they are playing a game. In real life, they would here much more from me. Pity and compassion. Passive aggressive. I am more a sheep in wolf clothes. Yet, we cannot scare people into a religion. I am not here to get them into a religion, but to tell the good news about Jesus. I have never said any other religion is wrong, I have tried to make clear that Christ is right. Don’t let Jon fool you. If any other religious person was on here, he would debate them the same way. If they build a mosque on public ground, he is against it. Unless he is only against Christ. Lets find out!

      • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

        Emily 6:33 “I have never said any other religion is wrong.”

        A few pages back, you were very clear that other gods are false and yours is the only real god. Have you changed your mind? Are you now saying people who worship other gods are not wrong?

        “Now, Jon, entech and Demosthenes pick on me a lot…”

        If you consider it “picking on you” to point out when you appear to have held two opposing positions at the same time, I apologize. I just feel the need to help you develop some coherant position.

        • Emily says:

          here is my postition. I love God, I love Jesus, and I love people. See, I don’t go to sites where there are Muslims and try to tell them they are wrong. I let them come to me. Then, they cant complain because they have coshen to hear what I say. I tell them about God, then leave the rest up to them. For you, I can be harder on you because you don’t act like you know or care. I am part of a group called “Jesus love is so great ” and all sorts of people come on there offended. It was their choice right? So no, I am not offended by what you say, because I chose to tell about Jesus. How many Muslims come here and preach to you? If a Hindu girl tried to get you to see it her way, would you react the same way you do with other religions? If she wanted an idol of the blue god they have on city hall, who would that offend? Not me! If I have crosses and ten c then she can have whatever, as I said! Church is puplic property too! Should crosses be taken off those? This whole post was misleadind both Christians and athiests alike!

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            “Church is puplic property too!” – Ummm, no it isn’t nor is it public property.

            Emily the point is that the government should not be establishing ANY religion.

          • Emily says:

            Its not about the government, its about what the freethinkers want. The president is not for any religion I can tell you that! Plus, when our voting rights are taken away, then we can talk! So keep voting for your people and they will make laws and then you can whine about it k! Thanks bye forever!

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Emily 6:55 “Here is my position.”

            I still don’t understand what your position is. First, you wrote all other gods are false. Then, you wrote other religions are not wrong. When I asked which one was you position, you went off on how persecuted you are.

            And, on “a church is public property..” Someone else has already corrected you, but there is a technical/legal meaning of “public property”. It is property owned by the government, city, state or federal. Churches are not owned by any of these. Without this elementary understanding, it will be impossible for you to understand what the 10C argument is all about.

            I know correcting you is the same as persecution–just has to be done.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @ Emily June 27, 2012 at 9:11 pm

            What is wrong with you, this isn’t about voting rights…

  9. I would like to have someone on these posts (the ones who are Unbelievers and dedicated ATHEISTS (take note: I am smarter than you imagine but I do typos ) —- explain something that troubles me greatly.
    WHY is it only Christianity and Christians that are attacked and demeaned as being stupid for their beliefs? Where are the same criticisms about other “believers” in other faiths? Why do you not all attack and demean: MUSLIMS/ HINDUS/ BUDDHISTS/ TAOISTS/ ZOROASTRIANS/ SIKHS/ and all other “world religious beliefs”? Why is Christianity singled out for the arrogance and debasing comments on this blog? What is it about Christianity that only that Belief is attacked? Why do you not all go after the others ( gang up on) I mentioned for their beliefs in a God/gods? Why not attack Allah or all the HIndu gods and goddesses? Why are the religious practices and customs of those religions left alone?

    Could it be because Unbelievers are so greatly (secretly) convicted by the person of Jesus Christ whose claim to be God’ Son is recorded in the Christian scriptures you so love to trash? Could it be that you secretly fear the coming face- to- face meeting with the Risen Christ at your deaths?

    • Emily says:

      Yes! Thanks for saying that! I have been talking with Jon for weeks and tried to use scripture but it does not work. I 100% agree with this statement and you are not alone! If the world hates you, remember it hated me first! (Jesus)

    • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

      Two of the last 4 posts were about abortion and separation of religion and state. Those aren’t exclusively Christian issues.

      Also, there’s a lot of current events that get discussed here and I think most of that necessarily has a Christian bent to it because that’s what is happening, in Fargo and in the United States.

      Finally, you’ve chosen as your deity, the Western world’s personification of the persecuted, so I suppose it’s only natural to see him in yourself.

      • Emily says:

        They are not exclusively Christian yet you blame Catholics and religious people. Plus, why have you never posted any errors atheism has caused. Rather then talk religion, how about your own little worlds. No doubt, Christ offends/scares you!

        • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

          Where am I blaming Catholics and religious people? What am I blaming them for?

          I disagree with their position on the appropriate separation of church and state and on choice and contraception (I can’t believe that’s back on the table all of a sudden). A person can be incorrect and not at fault. They’re different concepts that don’t always go together.

          The errors of atheism are subject to self correction through the application of logic and empiricism, any errors of dogma are not.

          I’m certainly not offended or freighted by Christ. Some of the people and organizations that lay claim to his mantle on the other hand are both offensive and frightening.

    • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

      Kay, not to oversimplify, but here’s how I see it.

      1. A discussion on Hinduism may be interesting, but not very lively since no one around here knows much about it.

      2. Christianity is currently the only religion actively forcing its ideals into politics as well as state and federal law. Americans would never stand for any other religion trying to get away with that.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      @ kay syvrud(buffalogal) June 27, 2012 at 6:45 pm

      “WHY is it only Christianity and Christians that are attacked and demeaned as being stupid for their beliefs?” Well in the United States by last statics I looked have those claiming to be Christian at nearly 70% or more. So statistically an Atheist talking about Christians should happen a lot more often here then it does now. None the less this is merely a red herring of yours to detract from the real question that Jon raised. Why do Christians fight to keep their religious icons(Hypocritical because I am pretty sure is violating a ten commandment) on government property when they KNOW it is unconstitutional? Weigh in here Kay, why are you okay with violating other people rights in service to your religion or faith?

      I find it funny that arguably the most destructive, bigoted, racist, misogynistic faith on this earth has faithheads whining about being picked on. How many corpses(literally) did Christianity leave in its wake to get to where it is today?

    • entech says:

      kay 6:45 There is one Muslim who sometimes gives long and interesting posts, to which Jon responds with any objections he finds about what is said. This man is encouraged to return. None of the Christian posters have deigned to engage with him. Apart from that there are no comments from any other group, with the best will in the world it is not possible to have a conversation of any kind without a correspondent.
      (unless you talk to God – sorry couldn’t resist – the limey humour :oops: )
      It is only the Christians and Muslims I know of that are proselytising religions. You forgot to mention Judaism, why? But they do make it quite difficult to convert (I think they may try for a little intergroup conversion, but not dragging people in off the street). Due to the caste system it is a little difficult to become Hindu, but , they say, not impossible to find your level. Sikhism is built on tolerance and universality. My brother in law is a Buddhist teacher, if I ask him about things he will say, there are courses available for people who are really interested – not a proselytising approach to new membership.
      At the risk of being repetitive it is not possible to have a conversation of any kind without a correspondent.

      OK, look at it this way, you all live in a country where the preponderance of people profess to some kind of Christianity. This blog is labelled “views of a freethinker” , what would you expect the topics to be? Apart from a few the comments on this site are basically presenting alternative views to the prevailing orthodoxy.

      You suggest that we are being anti because of some kind of secret fear of your Jesus, for some reason, you seem to suggest that we are all secret believers, you give the impression that all unbelievers are secret believers because your truth is so obvious etc. I would suggest this is the epitome of the claim of arrogance you aim at the non believer. I would go further and suggest that as your beliefs, are in many cases, so difficult to believe that they have to explained as mysteries, I suggest that you spend so much effort believing the unbelievable that you need to work equally hard to defend it.

      Mac @ 8:48 says it all clearly and concisely. He is not one of the un-believers.

  10. AtxGiant says:

    I wish all I had to worry about is a stone with some words on it or a cross. Don’t you
    have better things to do with your time that to waste our tax dollars on these stupid lawsuites. It is not making our world a better place it is dividing it. If they are they just leave them alone, if the want to add new ones stop them but please back off and do something positive for the country and stop tearing us appart. Isn’t their any common sense in this world anymore and Emily stop throwing God in there face it just fuels the fire. Just go about your lives and leave others alone.

    • Emily says:

      They asked for it. They want me to. They said that I can have any belief I want. So, yes I will get on with my life but not until I say
      Jesus loves you this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Don’t hate me because of my beliefs. Call upon the Lord. Even Muslims would say amen to that. Don’t listen to the media lie about religion. Demosthenes, Cletus and I are leaving for a vacation. The end is near… be ready. Hard to believe a fellow Christian is telling me not to talk about God. First time I have heard that bye forever.

      PS: Jesus is the only way to the Father amen!!

      • entech says:

        Emily @ 2:24 you say and I’m not making Christians look bad.
        The person who suggested that you stop throwing it people’s faces apparently does not agree.
        9:07
        They asked for it. They want me to. Actually you showed up out of nowhere, which is not asking; we want you to for a couple of reasons, if you’re real we (me anyway) would like to present an alternative view for your consideration; the other is that if you are not real that you will trip and fall, you have already stumbled badly a few times.
        A few clichés and nursery rhymes, then bye forever.

        Have nice vacation, have a nice life. No one hates you for your beliefs, it is just that your beliefs preach love but practice hate.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Atx 8:35 “It is not making our world a better place it is dividing it.”

      You are, here, stating something as fact when it is really your opinion. Martin Luther King heard the same criticism from black people at the time. “Leave the school segregated, let’s just drink from different water fountains, eating in the parking lots of restuarants is OK–better than not eating at all, etc. Rev. King, you are just dividing people.”

      The same has been true for gay rights. “Let’s not stir things up. It’s better if we gays just remain second class citizens than dividing people.”

      That it it a waste of tax payer’s money is something you should tell your elected people who are actually spending money to keep the 10C monuments and crosses on display on public property. Freethinkers have no authority whatsoever to spend the taxpayer’s money.

  11. I have not had my question an answered Demosthenes (with your mouth full of stones?)
    You questoin my motive for asking the question of why other faiths are not attacked by Atheists by attacking Christians again (“faithheads”)
    Talk about a red herring.
    You do not know me or my motives but you are not shy about attributing them to me….you are the real bigot.
    I have not interest in forcing my beliefs on other people but I am accused of doing it with no evidence whatsoever.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      I am allowed to share my opinions, whether you like it or not or believe it or not.

      “You do not know me or my motives but you are not shy about attributing them to me…” I don’t recall attributing anything to you specifically. Since this is not something I did, you are lying. Do you lie often?

      “I have not interest in forcing my beliefs on other people but I am accused of doing it with no evidence whatsoever.” Again, I did not accuse YOU of forcing your beliefs. It seem you do lie often. I would stop “crying wolf” , Oh MY a reference to a useful morality story NOT found in the Bible. How could this be?

      “I have not had my question an answered Demosthenes” – I did answer it, you may not understand it or read it but I did actually have a plausible and statistical answer to your red herring of a question. Why not try answering mine?

      Quoting myself is just weird but;
      “Why do Christians fight to keep their religious icons(Hypocritical because I am pretty sure is violating a ten commandment) on government property when they KNOW it is unconstitutional?”

  12. You make a general statement about Christians and you are the one that lies.
    Not all Christians fit your description of them but you refuse to acknowledge that due to your extreme hatred of Christianity. I draw my conclusions based on your posts filled with venom. My question about why Atheists leave other religious belief systems alone in the supposition that anyone who believes in God/gods is somehow stupid or naive. Why are other religions ignored? They all believe by faith in their religion….but they are not attacked by Atheists. Why not? I ask it one more time.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      buffalogal 3:24 As entech pointed out, I did question our Muslim friend who posted here. In general, I would answer you view by saying unbelievers criticize the dominent faith in whatever country they happen to live in. In the U. S., we do not see Hindus putting up symbols of their faith on public property, trying to force Hindu prayers into public meetings, putting Hinduism in our pledge and printing it on our money. While I don’t hate Christianity, I’d prefer it not be pushed at people at every available opportunity.

      While I, like you, know there are many branches of Christianity, Wanna B Sure assures us there is a main theme all agree upon. I don’t really know what that is, but so be it. I feel it is up to Christians to condeme parts of it that are in error. Just today, many parts of the Christian community right where you and I live should be screaming outrage at the Crookston Catholic Diocese. There should be a news conference featuring all Christians who disagree with the firing of a good teacher by the Bishop, not for what she does, but for a thought she holds in her head. But, it just is not done.

      • Henry says:

        Parents place their children in parochial school settings to partially shield them from the intrusive influences of the world. They don’t want their son or daughter to have the material forced down their throat of literature pieces such as “Billy Has Two Daddies”, etc. When a teacher departs from the parochial school beliefs and wants to bring her own worldly beliefs to the table, the parochial school has no other choice.

        • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

          She didn’t do that. She said nothing about her personal beliefs to any student or to any parent.

          • Henry says:

            Your dismissal is false. She brought her own worldly beliefs to the table. I think a Catholic school system should have the right to security that their beliefs are being taught. They exercised that right in this case. Security in their beliefs outweighs a teacher being given a job, or at least should.

        • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

          “They don’t want their son or daughter to have the material forced down their throat of literature pieces” Umm Henry, you know that the actual Bishop brought this up in front of the children not the Teacher. If you agree that you don’t want the “material” forced down their throat then why are you blaming the Teacher whose class it was and not the Bishop ?

          “When a teacher departs from the parochial school beliefs and wants to bring her own worldly beliefs to the table” By all accounts this did not occur in the case in which Jon is referring to, why you are implying she did such a thing is deceitful.

          Justifying it seems to be something you need to do though.

          • Henry says:

            I am surprised (perhaps not) that you scoff at the freedoms a Catholic school is afforded. Freedom of religion. Enjoy it.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            You are right as a private entity…religious or not, they can hire and fire however they see fit within the bounder of the state laws.

            I do object though for their reasons why, I suppose though if you in the business of spreading beliefs you better be drinking the kool-aid too.

          • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

            I think that the Bishop’s actions in that classroom. Telling those children to tell their parents how to vote calls into question the tax privileged status of the school and the diocese.

          • Henry says:

            D-:“I suppose though…

            No assumptions please.

      • Wanna B Sure says:

        Jon; Your; “…Wanna B Sure assures there is a main theme all agree upon. I don’t really know what that is, but so be it. I feel it is up to Christians to condeme parts of it that are in error.”—-As I have said on numerous occasions, (which you seem to have forgotten, or ignored,) the essentials of what defines Christian belief is contained in the Apostles Creed, the Athenasian Creed, and the Nicene Creed, with or without the Filioque. Among the “Non Creedal” Christian church bodies, even though the creeds are not emphasized, the content in general is pretty well represented or implied in their individual Doctrinal statements, or in “what we believe.” These statements then become their “Creed”. If a so called church body does not have these essential elements, they cannot be called “Christian”, even if they claim the name. As I have said before, most disagreement comes in the areas apart from the creedal/ doctrinal statements. Most are related to polity, ecclesiology, ritual, or form. That being said, within the umbrella of Christianity, there is agreement.
        I find it interesting that you should bring up “error”. This I have consistantly done, yet the horrible word “error” has been talked down. Yet you encourage revealing “error”. I see inconstistancy on your side of the fence. Many of these “errors” are discussed within and between the different Church bodies all the time, but under the radar of those outside the Christian community. Your admonishment rings hollow, and uninformed.

    • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

      “You make a general statement about Christians and you are the one that lies.”

      Show me how a general opinion is a lie or that I did lie, if you don’t do this you are just spouting baseless accusations in hopes something sticks to me….. good luck.

      “Why are other religions ignored?” I will speak to any faith about the inaccurate and so called truths™ of their comments. If there is a muslin commenting I will comment, if a Jew is commenting I will comment, If any faith comments I will comment. I am not ignoring other faiths it is just those faiths don’t comment here a lot. If it were up to me all religions would fall into mythology as to why you feel Christian are picked on more, as we have basically said…there are more of you here commenting, more of you in the U.S., more of you demanding your religious beliefs in government(Nice, back on TOPIC).

      Answer the question KAY:
      Why do Christians fight to keep their religious icons on government property when they KNOW it is unconstitutional?

  13. entech says:

    It always comes down to why are you persecuting the Christians? Just because we know the truth? Just because you are frightened to face Jesus? God tells us how to live, why don’t you submit to the will of God? and so on.
    You tell us we are born sinners, beyond redemption – unless we permit you make the rules, unless we do as you say, unless we reject everything YOU think is sinful, unless, unless unless.

    The same applies to Islam, obviously without the deification of Jesus.

    You have the Christian Right, or whatever in America, Australia has the Christian Lobby, the equivalent in the U.K.

    You all claim persecution because we won’t all meekly submit.

    For me it is simple, you terrify me! I don’t think you have any basis for your beliefs, I don’t think your so called moral values have any value, and I don’t want them imposed on me. A common call is why are the “NEW” atheists so strident, so militant, so whatever the derogation of the month is – it is simply a defense mechanism.

  14. To Demosthenes: I am not referring at all to the argument about having religious symbols on public property. That is an issue by itself.
    My question involves why is Christianity alone singled out by Atheists for attack?
    You cannot wrap all Christians in the mantle you choose…that of the questoin of public property. All the Ten Commanments monuments and other Jewish or Christian pieces on public property can be removed without my being upset.
    If they are all removed then Christians will—if they wish to do so…post such monuments on their own PRIVATE PROPERTY. This is not the issue involved in my
    question at all.

  15. Yes Paul you ARE uptight and I correct my spelling of ATHEISTS.
    It was a typo done twice in a row. IN fact there are a lot of you commenters on this blog that are down right AR.

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