Ways Christians Serve Satan.

Christians, not Satan, is the reason many leave the faith.  Of course, Satan does not benefit from this because there is no Satan.

The author below spent time on a site I, also, look at,  ex-christian.com.  This site is teeming with testimonials from people who have left the faith or are on their way out.

The irony is that much of what Christians think they should say, or, are taught to say, to skeptics is exactly the wrong thing to say.  First among the ways people are pushed out of the faith is by gay baiting.  Acceptance of gays, and of gay marriage, is so widespread there are people with gay friends and relatives in virtually every church.

Those who talk anti gay to others think they are portraying  themselves as being on a high moral plain.  Those who hear anti gay talk, instead, think anti-gay Christians have low moral standards.

People are pushed out of Christianity by the circular reasoning.  Once someone internalizes the absurdity of believing in God because God said he should, or, that God exists because God said he exists, telling that person to read the marvelous things God said about himself moves the effort backwards.

A third way to make a skeptic out of a believer is to put down women. This includes prohibiting women from holding church offices.

Discriminating against women is so widespread across the faith, one could say it is the Christian faith and not be far off the mark.

http://www.alternet.org/story/155553/8_ways_christian_fundamentalists_make_people_convert_–_to_agnosticism_or_atheism?page=entire

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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59 Responses to Ways Christians Serve Satan.

  1. entech says:

    “If the Catholic bishops, their conservative Protestant allies, and other right-wing fundamentalists had the sole objective of decimating religious belief, they couldn’t be doing a better job of it.”

    Interesting opening sentence to the article, reminds me of the story attributed to Napoleon, He asked an aide how best to defeat the church only to be told that, “if all the bishops and priests have failed you have little hope”

  2. Henry says:

    Jon:“Acceptance of gays, and of gay marriage, is so widespread there are people with gay friends and relatives in virtually every church.”

    Yeah, acceptance of that sin is working out well.

    http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/362319/publisher_ID/1/

    It is also killing the presbyterian denomination. “Peace”, “Unity”, and “Purity”. Sure, whatever.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Henry 1:23 Different generations of Christians have different definitions of sin. Always has been. The anti gay generation is the older, gay rights the younger.

      • Henry says:

        Sure, the Presbyterian Church is doing what your demands are. You should be a full-fledged member. Instead, the church loses both the gay atheist and the Christian.

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Henry 3:22 “Instead, the church loses both the gay atheist and the Christian.”

          You mean, I’m sure, the gay Christian and the prejudiced Christian. A gay athiest would not have been a member. Nevertheless, by being inclusive of gays, there might be a light at the end of the tunnel somewhere. By excluding, those who continue to believe old myths just die off and there is no one to replace them.

          • Henry says:

            Jon: “A gay athiest would not have been a member.”

            Sure there is. You have had posts on them on this very blog.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry 1:17 I don’t happen to recall anyone who here who said he/she is gay, an athiest and a church member.

            It’s a little hard to remember all 12,500 posts that have been made on this site. But, you are good at remembering ones to use against stuff I write so if anyone can find the gay/atheist/Chrisitan it would be you. : )

          • Henry says:

            Not sure about gay, but atheist pastor he is. You now say an atheist would not be a member. You said before there was this atheist pastor. Which way? I can’t follow your logic.

            http://redriverfreethinkers.areavoices.com/2011/08/10/a-preacher-to-die-for/

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Henry Athest pastors, yes, there are a few. I don’t know any atheist gay church members.

          • entech says:

            Henry. PK says you have a database you say not, the evidence seem to point to PK’s version.

          • Stan says:

            Good Google skills can do that entech

          • entech says:

            Stan you are probably right. Just that I find many more interesting things to search for than just to score points here.

          • Stan says:

            I find if a person isn’t consistent in their arguments there may be no reason to respect them. Those are the people who are here to score points.

  3. Matt Slocomb says:

    [Matt--I'm trying to maintain this site as a place where people express themselves, not as one where folks toss up sites, only. I'll accomodate this one but in the future, please give us a brief review of what you found. Thanks.
    Jon
    ]

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/05/24/the-costly-faithfulness-of-the-falls-church/

    • Henry says:

      Falls Church retained the important treasure. The sin encouragers received their treasure. Good luck to them and the enjoyment of their newly aquired empty building.

  4. Stan says:

    Jon , the first school administrators who were women were Sisters in the Catholic Church. The first hospital administrators who were women were Sister in the Catholic Church. Over half the administrators of Catholic Charities are probably women. Half of the staffs of the Dioceses and parish’s are women. I would put the hiring of women in positions of responsibility in the Catholic Church against any organization on earth.

    • entech says:

      How many priests are women?

    • Stan says:

      What really surprises me is how they can get people to be priests at all. They work 7 days a week and if they get much free time it is in small parcels during the day. If the rest of us worked like that it would be considered horrendous. I really believe that 99% of women would be too smart to even want to be in a position like that, and the other 1% want it just because it’s currently forbidden.

      • entech says:

        Very much a microcosmic view of Christian thinking. A masterpiece of prevarication. A simple question that should have elicited a one word answer – Zero; with perhaps a statement that it should (actually, it theologically must) remain that way.

        • entech says:

          VATICAN CITY | Thu Apr 5, 2012 7:58am EDT
          (Reuters) – Pope Benedict on Thursday re-stated the Roman Catholic Church’s ban on women priests and warned that he would not tolerate disobedience by clerics on fundamental teachings.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Stan 5:19 “I would put the hiring of women in positions of responsibility in the Cath. Ch. against an organization of earth.”

      Friend, you’ve got to be kidding. Their thousands of organizations, including Christian Protestant denominations, who do not exclude women from any positions. Catholics black ball women from the positions next to God–they are not allowed there.

      • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

        And they’re going backwards on this issue. Didn’t the Vatican just install a new “inquisitor” to head a 5 year review of the largest female faith organization in the US because the men in Rome disagreed with some of the things they were doing?

  5. Doubtful says:

    “Discriminating against women is so widespread across the faith, one could say it is the Christian faith and not be far off the mark.”

    Really Jon? More of you unsubstantiated beliefs?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Doubtful “Really Jon? More of your unsubstantialed beliefs?”

      Let’s do the numbers, as they say. The largest Christian groups in the world, Catholics, no woman clergy. The largest denomination of Protestants, Southern Baptist Convention, no women clergy. Missouri Synod, no women clergy. Mormons,…do you want to keep going with the other branches of Baptists, evangelicals, or raise your white flag and I am correct.

      • Wanna B Sure says:

        Jon; You have named/accused several denominations of discrimination against women. While there are some that feel that way, there are millions of women who don’t feel discriminated against. Understandably, you would consider one side, and not the other.

        • Wanna B Sure says:

          And the extreme minority at that.

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Wanna 6:11 “there are millions of women who don’t feel discriminated against.”

          Of course there are. Many slaves were happy being slaves, many black people criticized Martin Luther King for stirring things up, Rep. Barney Frank did not want the issue of gay marriage raised, and on it goes.

          I was not speaking for women who are happy being discriminated against. I was merely making a statement: the majority of the christian churches discriminate, period.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Jon; You have compared this to slavery. Completely irrelevant, and not in the least related. That only works if you think you can get by with it because slavery is such a taboo, and everyone will shrink away in shame. Slick trick. Doesn’t work.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Wanna 11:47 “Slick trick”

            I see you really don’t like factual statements.

            Here is a fact: The Catholic church does not allow women to be clergy. There are more back office jobs than there are clergy. It is also true there were several jobs to support each plantation owner.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Jon; Not talking about the RCC, or slavery. As you try to “introduce factual statements” not relevant to what I was talking about. And you know it.—Spinner.

          • Stan says:

            Slaves can’t leave the plantation Jon. Show me the slave catchers if someone decides to leave the Catholic Church.

            Thanks for turning me on to “The History of the Church by Eusebius” I can see where you would have problems with that book with all the martyrs in it and the description of their deaths. In that day all you had to say was “I am a Christian” and you signed your own death warrant.

        • Wanna B Sure says:

          Jon; “I was not speaking for women who are happy being discriminated against”. WHAT IN THE HELL IS THAT KIND OF STATEMENT? “happy being discriminated against”? Spin-twist-turn. Old “Spinner Linedgren” just fell down the rabbit hole, and got stuck in the twilight zone.

          • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

            Wanna 11:37 I don’t see what the problem is. They are being discriminated against. They are happy. Two statements of fact, not spin.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Jon; With the exception of “happy”,( content would be more accurate), Your statement is all spin, and twist. You are not in a position to demand or imply anyone’s personal opinion to be in compliance with your distorted understanding, knowingly or not.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Sea; By your criteria, I shouldn’t be married to my wife, or versa versa. We met in the 8th grade, “went steady”,( as was quite customary then), and got married later. We have been married 50 yr. Neither one of us ever went out with others. We have not “known any different”, had different, or experienced “different”. By your standards, we have made uninformed choices, and are to stand judged by you. Both of us have seen what is out there, and are quite content thank you. Not joining or quiting is not a sign of not being aware or knowing. I suspect that you pretty much consider anyone who doesn’t agree with you, poorly informed, or worse, a fool. How judgemental that would be.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Sea; Your referrence is confusing. Don’t date/marry a Jew? Bars are the best place to meet quality people? Bars are a poor place to meet quality people. Bars are a good/bad place to get laid? Every one needs a “dating coach”? Hasidic judaism and all the related culture should be applied to everyone as relates to their needs and preferrences? One individual’s situation should be applied to everyone?

            When my son was starting to date, I told him to go to ice cream socials, or some other like situation. Don’t look for the future mother of your children in a bar. Chances are that he could find someone else’s left overs, or an alcoholic/drug user, and a whole basket full of STD’s. I also told him that those “God fearin” women like to hug and kiss too. He took my advice, and he has been married (to the same woman) for about 25 years. I suppose he made a bad choice too, by your standards too.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @Wanna B Sure May 31, 2012 at 6:17 pm

            Your disdain for bars(taverns,pubs,ale houses) is misplaced. You seem to have made up a stereotype of experience and misinformation.

            With out Beer and Pubs there would be no America, heck there wouldn’t be the civilization there is today. Careful what you assume.

            I go to bars to socialize, eat, drink, and be merry. I must be an aberration in your stereotypical patron you pose or could it be you….

          • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

            I can never tell if people willfully take my analogies at a completely different level of specificity or abstraction than I intend them or if I simply interpret the world differently than they do.

            Wanna, while personally I’m not one for courting women at pubs, that’s hardly the point. The woman in that story was so excited upon having the most elementary of social interactions w/ a man that she was physically shaking, her dating coach was hardly putting in her a position where she was at risk of ending up with someone else’s leftovers.

            Wanna, I think you’d be shocked to discover how similar are standards may be. But my standards are mine because I decided what they’d be not because someone else decided for me. The dating coach said the same thing in the opening paragraphs. Q: “Why do I have to like bars?” A: “You don’t have to do anything.”

            People should follow rules because they make sense for them (in the largest possible context) not because they make sense for someone else.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Again you ass-ume way beyond your shallow capabilities. I actually enjoy bars. And enjoyable place for friendly conversation, and catching up with friends. The context of the link seemed to be centered around a bar, and a dating advisor. I however have never considered a bar the best or only place for a babe search. My quest started in an 8th grade english class, and she was a good speller. Ya got anything wrong with that? By the way, her maiden name was Virginia. I suppose that would have been a bad choice too by your standards.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Sea; Your last paragraph; @8;13 presents a different picture than what your 5;11 implied.

          • Avatar of seaofstories seaofstories says:

            I’m not sure how, but maybe that goes back to the first paragraph of my 8:13.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Almost forgot. You may not know it. I have mentioned it in the past, but you may not have present then. For years, I played for dances. At clubs, bars, pavilions, machine sheds, barns. weddings, anniversaries, firemen’s partys, street dances,barbecues, even a couple post-funeral parties. I think I am more than qualified to make observations. Been outright propositioned, and a few sugestions. Much good fun was had at all, but some not so good for others. Nothing more interesting than a cat fight. For some of the young men’s prospects, a can of DDT would have been advisable. I really enjoyed doing it, and miss the performance. Some of the “performers” are now in nursing homes, and I see them there now, as I play for them again.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; addition ; Should have included the hazards equal for both males, and females.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @Wanna B Sure May 31, 2012 at 8:18 pm

            Let’s be correct especially if I am being accused of being an ass. Where did I assume? These are words directly from your writings.

            “Chances are that he could find someone else’s left overs, or an alcoholic/drug user, and a whole basket full of STD’s.”

            There is no assumption that this is what you believe. If you have issue with me correcting you then say it, but don’t say I assumed information you gave readily. That simple isn’t true at all.

            You paint a bleak and grim picture with those words, I don’t deny your experiences in fact I mention them myself. I point out that you have a stereotype, nothing wrong with that just your view is not the same and that there is more to a pub then the picture you painted.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Your 6;17; 1st paragraph–”Your disdain for bars…..you seem to have made up a steriotype of experience and misinformation”. says it all. Purely uninformed. If the rest fits, wear it.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; The ass-ume thingie. You take that much too personally. Have you never heard the assume= “makes an ass out of you AND me”? The ass-ume is a short version. This form has been use by others, and by me on different occasions, and differant formats, and not been misunderstood before until now. Methinks you are a little over sensative.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @Wanna B Sure May 31, 2012 at 10:19 pm

            So we agree then I didn’t assume information and in fact the information came directly from the source(your writings).

            I have no issue with being an ass(personally); I do draw issue with you saying I assume data when it is presented right in front of everyone, including myself.

            Also the word ‘disdain’ is a perfect example in contextualizing what you said; disrespect. No respect for where we would be with out such places in the first place.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Brown paper bag. breathe in and out deeply. No too much though. You might get dizzy.

          • Avatar of Demosthenes Demosthenes says:

            @Wanna B Sure June 1, 2012 at 4:56 pm

            You feel I am over reacting? Setting the ‘ass’ remark aside(even if it is both of us). To you I am still shallow and “Purely uninformed”. The underlying fact is, you are calling me a liar.

            I am merely pointing out that you are wrong. Guess what? It is OK to be wrong. You just got to admit it.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Not calling you a liar. If one over reacts, and makes hasty conclusions without consideration of all the points presented, and the context, it isn’t necessarily a lie. Feel free to call it what you like. Go back to the start, take a deep breath, review, and get over yourself.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            Demo; Just for clarity; My “If one over reacts”, It should have read “If you over react”. Wouldn’t want you to misunderstand.

      • Stan says:

        Catholic priests currently number over 400,000 worldwide. The world’s Catholic population is now 1.166 billion. There are probably 100 other employees in Catholic organizations for every priest. I would say Congress and it’s staff probably wouldn’t have the same percentage of women working as the world wide catholic organizations.

        0.00334 Percentage of Catholics who are priests.

        • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

          Stan 6:43 “There are probably 100..employees in the Catholic organizations for every priest.”

          On plantations, most of the employees were slaves. The ratio has nothing to do with the principle of discrimination

          • entech says:

            Tell me Jon, do you think it is possible that childhood teaching that instills fear of God (fear of God’s punishment would be more accurate), and all that that entails, desire for heaven and fear of hell and so on could be a kind of intellectual slavery. Every time you talk of youth leaving the church some religious person will say yes, but they come back when they get older, especially as they approach death, aren’t these children in a kind of mental slavery that does not need fences or slave catchers.

          • Wanna B Sure says:

            The bondage of the will is a form of slavery that prevents those from seeing or acknowleging their shortcomings, and the resulting crash. Worse yet, that debt of slavery has been paid, freedom offered, and rejected. There is real slavery for you.

        • Stan says:

          Jon, which slaves do you know can leave the plantation? I guess I can look for an opening as a runaway slave catcher in the diocese newspaper.

  6. entech says:

    entech says:
    May 30, 2012 at 5:26 am

    How many priests are women?

  7. entech says:

    You must have struck a nerve of some kind Jon. The anti brigade are further from reality than usual.

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