Are There Really Any “Death Bed Conversions”?

It’s conventional wisdom secular people often “come to Jesus” just before death.    I’m  suspicious about how often it happens.  I wonder if it ever happens.

In Billy Graham’s question and answer column yesterday he told of the recent death of a secular friend.  Graham said a “Christian relative” had visited the sick friend just before he died and got the “death bed conversion”.  No one else was there.

There is a story Charles Darwin had a death bed conversion.  It was told, like the Graham tale, by a Christian.  Darwin’s daughter, however, says she herself was by his bedside the entire time leading to his death and he had no such conversion.  The Christian telling the tale was not seen visiting Darwin during that period of time.

I visited with a local hospital chaplain a few years ago about death bed conversions.  She is a Christian but does not see her job as converting patients.  It is, instead, to carry out  patients’ wishes.  She said there are aggressive Christian nurses she has to monitor to prevent these “conversions”.

People about to die surely must often be in pain, under medication,  in various states of consciousness and in vulnerable circumstances.  That one in such circumstances says “yes” to a question about faith does not count.  And, if the story of the  conversion is told by a Christian who is bragging, forget it.

Asking a person in the process of dying for a conversion is not a proud accomplishment.  Anyone who plays such mind games with the dying should be ashamed.

94 Responses

  1. NewNameGuy

    If you are so opposed to the 10 commandment monument, why did you not tell the Forum you were uncomfortable standing by it while they took your picture and used it in the story. You seem to be ok with getting attention for yourself and the story. Hypocracy at it’s finest. This is my free thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. NewName 12:07 Thanks for the post.

      The Ten Commandments include one which says you are to worship the Judeo-Christian god and none other. When it sits on government property, it becomes the government telling its citizens which god the are to worship and which not to worship.

      It’s interesting that there were other gods around when the Ten Commandments were written. People like me share something with the those authors. They believed all those other gods were imaginary. So do we. There is only one we disagree on.

      1. Michael Ross

        It sits on property of the City of Fargo, not the federal goverment. The people of Fargo want it left right where it is and you want to tare it down. Is this how you thank this community for electing you mayor for four terms?

        1. Demosthenes

          Michael. Understand that Fargo and North Dakota are both a part of the United States and thus abide by the Constitution. As Well, North Dakotans also abide by its own Century code. These all include a separation in form of religion and state.

          I don’t want it there anymore then you would want a statue of Odin there….

          1. Michael Ross

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”

            Congress is the FEDERAL lawmaking body. They have nothing to say about the matter of religion. The feds are nutral. Its a states rights matter. If North Dakota wanted to make the Lutheran church or Utah wanted to make the Morman church its official state supported religion (I would personally oppose it), the feds have nothing to say about it. And the Constitution sure doesn’t prohibit Fargo from having a Ten Commandments monument at city hall.

        2. Michael 12:14 Demonthenes makes a good point. The courts take the words of the Constitution seriously. The founders knew States at that time were trying to stuff religion into government and did not give them, or local governments, a pass.

          1. Michael Ross

            Sovereignty resides with the states, not the federal government. The U.S. was founded as a voluntary association of sovereign states. That has gotten way out of whack since the Civil War.

  2. Henry

    Asking a patient for a conversion implies one to judge another’s salvation. This appears to be wrong. Asking a patient if it is acceptable to pray with the dying patient is cool. I had a close family member who was greatly comforted with the nurses praying with her during her waning days. Awesome.

  3. Bob

    Since the ten commandment thing was brought up here, I’ll add my 2 cents. It seems to me (some out there will call me pathological for this, for attacking their religion called The Governnment) that placing the ten commandments on government property makes sense. They both control you from different angles; and both want your loyalty, your thinking, your money, and anything else they can get.

    Keep going to church to beg, keep going to the political clergy to beg.

    On my death bed, I only want to look back and smile at all the things I did to try be free of both forms of religion.

  4. Project blue beam

    I’ve also heard a lot of death row inmates are super religious. I don’t think God is so concerned with us attending church as he/she wants us to treat each other well and be truthful. Faith helps so many people, how many are helped by atheism? The ten commandments tell us to be
    Good to each other, is that a bad thing? Do you ever focus on any other subjects?

    1. Project many are helped by atheism?

      I think you’d be surprised.

      P.S. “Project” I’d appreciate it if you would use the same handle each time you post. When you constantly change handles, I have to fish your posts out of the spam file which takes some effort. I’d like to have your posts continue to appear here but I have only so much time for administrative tasks. Thanks.

      1. Stan

        Jon 3:18

        I have yet to hear from an inmate that a group of atheists gave up their weekend to come in and help 30 of them find a better life when they get out of jail. I do know individuals do help, but most of the none government organized help comes from people of faith.

        I do the inhouse retreats, others have the talent to help once they get out and I know many retired people who work almost full time at it and have even built group homes with their own money to try to ease the transition.

    2. Demosthenes

      Lets be truthful then, I help people out all the time. I am atheist. How has the Christian faith helped homosexuals, women, human health, non-believers, or Science?

      Also, what “good to each other” ? Unless you are talking murder and thievery which I am sorry to tell you, I didn’t need a rule book to figure out that wasn’t a good thing. Adultery? How many millions of Christian do this every day? Depictions of the Lord. I see tons of Christians with pictures of Jeebus, Rosaries, and Crosses and what not. Sabbath Day? Really, your gonna go there. Also aren’t NOT following one of the commandments right now? False testimon.

        1. Michael Ross

          Demosthenes, you mentioned the Century Code. Could you provide the reference to church and state? I would be most interested in that quote. Thanks.

      1. Stan

        Demosthenes 3:38 pm

        Science? How about establishing the modern university system? How about the many scholars of the Renaissance who were supported by the Church. The first female administrators of schools and hospitals in the US were nuns. The first hospitals were created and run by the Church. How’s that health for you? And anyone is welcome to those hospitals regardless of faith or lack there of.

        1. Demosthenes

          I guess Stan I am more concerned with aid organizations in Africa particularly Christian ones refusing to hand out birth control like condoms to help stop the epidemic of AIDS that country faces. Science, the sheer fact that Christianity and the bible are in direct conflict with geology and biology. States like Tennessee trying to pass laws that would allow teachers to teach to their students intelligent design. Wouldn’t a biology test be fun then? Every answer: goddidit

          Stan, while I am happy you feel Christianity saved or made you a better man. You are a drop in the ocean compared to the zealots that push faith into schools, goverment, and science.

          1. Stan

            Demosthenes 3:34
            Not all Christians believe in young Earth, not even most of them. To put us all in one category shows how little you know of the faith. In fact the Big Bang was first proposed by a Catholic priest and is endorsed along with evolution by the Catholic Church. There are plenty of people handing out condoms in Africa, but as long as the shamans tell them that having unprotected sex with a virgin will cure them no one cares anyway. Until the Africans are educated it doesn’t make any difference. Currently most if not almost all schools in sub Saharan Africa are sponsored by Christians. When will we start seeing schools in Africa started by organized atheists?

            I have also seen MANY people made better humans with the help of God, if it was just one or two there wouldn’t be a church to worry about.

  5. Demosthenes

    “Section 23. The state of North Dakota is an inseparable part of the American union and
    the Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land.” – Huh that kind of sums it up doesn’t. I can find more of you wish….awaiting apology

      1. Demosthenes

        As part of the union North Dakota will follow the US Constitution. The US Constitution actually cares whether or not the ANY(Federal or State or Local) goverment promotes one religion over another.

        The ND Century Code and Constitution does lack a lot of the rights that the US Constitution gives us BECAUSE they are inherited from in part that WE ARE A PART of it.

        What right does the City of Fargo have to promote one religion over another? Don’t our Hindu believers in the area deserve equal protection and rights under our federal,state, and local laws? Why not include everybody’s gods? I suppose there isn’t room for them all. So let’s be equal then and promote none. Unless you have a problem with equality in religions, I am sure though that Shiva could kick Jesus’s butt any day. They got three gods too.

        As for circular reasoning, I don’t see it. All states accept that the supreme law of the land is the US Constitution. You cannot make laws that disregard the US Constitution as a State or Local goverment. So it is more of a ” all points” lead to the US Constitution reasoning in this case.

        1. Wanna B Sure

          This argument of the 10 C, and also the “In God We Trust”, is really a relatively later subject, brought on primarily by the “enthusiasts/pietists” of post reformation leanings. It wasn’t an issue up to the 40’s. It’s not a topic worth fighting for to loose, including the loss of credability in the process.
          I do take issue with your; “I am sure though that Shiva could kick Jesus’s but any day. They got three gods too.” I’m not concerned about who’s butt is being kicked, but your “they got three gods too”. reveals a false understanding of the God of Christianity. Shiva may have three gods if they wish to call them that, but Christianity does not. This has been discussed before, and yet non-belief still repeats the mis-understanding. That is the definition of the “Triunity of the Godhead” (singular). “In the name,(singular) of the ather, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Much has been written on this subject, including the Creeds. Note the Athenasian Creed. Call it what you wish, but “three gods, it is not, nor is it three modes,(modalism)manifestations of that one God. I’m sure Entech will throw his two cents in here, and insist that it can’t be, and it makes no sense. he has in the past, and I would be surprised if he dosen’t. The bottom line is, no one has the authority outside of Christianity to say anything what Christianity believes. Atheists don’t believe in any kind of God, so their uninformed point is worthless.

          1. Demosthenes

            I am sure the three god problem has nothing to do with stealing other gods from other religions and incorporating them into one “mish mash” of a book and slapping Bible on it…could it?

            You are correct that one would need “faith” in Christianity to resolve that sort of cognitive dissonance.

            I count three, you count three. Just when I count three it means there are three. When you count three it means there are all the same so one. You don’t need to discount atheists when really it is psychology.

            I am dismayed though that I did not get your opinion on equality of religions. Don’t you think they are should be treated equally?

          2. Wanna B Sure

            Oh, I thought the non-necessity of displaying the 10-c would imply equality. I believe anyone should have the freedom to practice their faith equally. You are free to believe what you wish, but you are not free to tell us what we believe, when you say;”they got three gods too.”

          3. Demosthenes

            Wanna B @ 7:46 pm

            I live in the U.S. so I pretty much CAN tell you what to believe, you just don’t have to believe it and I can’t make you believe it without infringing on your rights. AKA, breaking the law.

            You are right in retrospect to government telling us what to believe. They cannot tell you there are 3 gods anymore then they can tell me there is only one god(ain’t that the 1st commandment? On the tablet, On display, On goverment property?). Cause then the goverment is infringing on our rights. See how that works. I like it. I hope you do too.

        2. Henry

          Demonthenes: “The ND Century Code and Constitution does lack a lot of the rights that the US Constitution gives us BECAUSE they are inherited from in part that WE ARE A PART of it.”

          Great. We have been informed by demosthenes that we inherit our rights from the government and are given rights by the U.S. Constitution now instead of them being natural rights. Can anyone say “tyranny”?

          Actually, the way to look at it is the federal government is limited in what it can do. Or should be.

          1. Demosthenes

            It is odd they had to write them down…. I wonder why?

            “Tyranny” would be the lack of an option to govern ourselves. We govern ourselves “by the people” so we more or less have a lot of freedoms. Unfortunately, forms of goverment and religion provide less liberties then others(Islam, Totalitarian, Catholic Inquisition, Etc..) . In the U.S. we list such “natural” or inalienable freedoms and rights. We do this so as to NOT lose our liberties to those who wish to oppress them.

            I do find it funny though you call it “tyranny” when it comes from the goverment… cause we “the people” are the goverment. Yeah, it may be a bit rose colored there but it really couldn’t work any other way.

            In the U.S. your are born with these liberties, I like that.

          2. Henry

            D- “It is odd they had to write them down…. I wonder why?

            There were reservations amongst the founders about doing such, particularly with the Bill of Rights. They were concerned if they spelled out rights, people would eventually interpret the natural rights to be limited to the list. And so you have. They were right.

          3. Wanna B Sure

            There is an interesting thing that happens in the work force. That is the “job description”. On the surface, a fine idea, and usually workable, but on occasion, “it’s not in my job description” pops up as an excuse not to do the simplest things to assist a fellow worker. An excuse not to do really, even when common sense says you should, or could. I understand a lot of “hold ups” have resulted in construction type jobs because the one with the job description could arrive. I realize there could be safety factors, and specialized fields involved, but certainly not all the time.

          4. Demosthenes

            H – I would concede your point but I think this is where amendments come in, I do not believe the current rights we have or the totality of it all. That being said, I am worried. Why am I the only one who see’s it that way or at least you are giving me the impression that you don’t understand it that way.

          5. Wanna B Sure

            D; I’m not. Just a follow up to Henry in just a little different vein. The same concept could be applied to the concerns of the bill of rights. Sorry, should have specified.

          6. Henry

            Wanna, I know exactly what you mean. We are going through that right now (DCE). A nicely detailed job description was arrived at with much fine effort from one of the committees that handle such. Of course the comment was “this person will not be able to sleep” with all those duties. However, criticism would have been lodged if less detail was provided. Society has gone from being able to function with an “allegorical” approach in the old days to requiring a very “literal” approach now that still doesn’t get the job done.

            Construction is indeed in the same vein. What used to require a thin set of specifications now requires a fat stack of specifications with much detail that still isn’t enough. Something has been lost. I guess perhaps everyone is smarter with their “scientific” ipads.

  6. Bob

    You are born free until you encounter the supernaturalist religions, and government religions. Both are evil.

    1. Wanna B Sure

      Bob; You are free to go against any of the “supernaturalist religions”. You do now. They can’t do anything to you. What “governmental religion’s laws do you want freedom from? Murder, theft, rape, slander, etc.? Or do you wish not to pay taxes except those designated for your own personal wants? speed, drink to excess, and drive,or then beat your wife and children? Do you want to get welfare , or SSI disability without proving elegibility? Please be specific.

      1. Demosthenes

        “Murder, theft, rape, slander, etc.”
        I think you are confused as to what freedom is…. complete liberty would be anarchy. In truth there would be no goverment. U.S. has a lot of liberties but we are not completely free.

        Now whether Bob wants anarchy, I do not know.

    2. Bob

      Demothenus 8:22
      “The minute you hear ‘Freedom’ or ‘democracy,’ watch out! because in a truly free nation, no one has to tell you that you’re free.”–Jacque Fresco

  7. Bob

    For Wanna.
    If you think my Voluntarism/agorism/anarchism, is extreme.

    “If by ‘extreme’ you mean principled, then I accept your calling me that, even though I find it distasteful. However, if you mean ‘too outrageous to take seriously,’ then I reject your epithet and call into question your motives. Are you one of those people who think politicians and bureaucrats should be allowed to mess with your life any time they want? Or any time ‘the majority’ wants? Is the concept of the sovereign individual citizen so unthinkable to you that you consider it ‘extreme’? Or are you so defensive about how sloppy a thinker you are that you resent, and are even hostile to, people who strive for intellectual clarity? Or are you just so comfortable in your intellectual mediocrity that you can’t be bothered to think about the long-term consequences of your principles or lack thereof, and hate to be challenged. too?

    “I consider the term ‘extremism’ to be a word deliberately chosen for its vagueness and used by intellectual slobs who are too desperate, sneaky or lazy to say exactly what they mean. Its only purpose is to deliberately try to confuse the difference between people who are extremely good (usually because of devotion to their principles) with people who are extremely bad. The sleazeballs who use this supposedly scary, yet undefined, word are not only trying to smear people of conviction and integrity, but they’re also trying to divert attention away from the fact that they are obviously not people of principle themselves.”

    ~Rick Gaber

    There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. – Daniel Webster

    1. Wanna B Sure

      Bob; “extreme” your words, not mine. I don’t remember using it. I thought you could ‘splain yourself with your own words, not from someone else. That being said, It appears that your problem is with government, not religion. Religion can’t controll you if you don’t accept it, (which you don’t).

  8. Bob

    We all post stuff other people have said or written here.

    Religion is a government that controls your mind, a surrendering of the mind, and good common sense to it. Its your choice though, just keep it out of my life please.
    Same with the religion called the government.
    Thank you

    1. Wanna B Sure

      Then change it. Get involved with a political party, or start a new one. Run for office. You could start with support with the “occupy” people. Or do a putsch?

  9. Bob

    I don’t participate in the supernaturalist religions, why would I participate in the government religion?
    I’m non-theist and non-statist.

  10. Bob

    As I’ve posted before, I “participate” by not playing the game.
    Trying to make it so I pay as little taxes as possible, so I’m not supporting things I don’t believe in, like money given to religions, schools, military, and so on and so on.
    I don’t surrender my children to be indoctrinated for 13 years or more, any more than I’d surrender them to be indoctrinated by going to church and Sunday school.
    And I try get the word out about why I’m non-theist, and non-statist.
    And other NAP things.

      1. Bob

        Wanna 11:00

        Just by not participating in religions which I don’t believe in, so too do I not participate in the government religion.

        In both, by not being under the delusions, I feel I’m part of the solution, at least for myself and my family, and many friends.

      1. Wanna B Sure

        Your posts are quite aggressive. I can’t believe that if given the opportunity……………………aggression would be revealed.

  11. pk

    Jon, can you prove that the monument is actually the 10 Commandments of the Bible? It’s not the complete scripture leaving out the parts where it’s specific on who the messenger is. I haven’t been there in person to read what’s written on the bottom, i’m just going off of pictures on the internet. I can’t see anything that actually says it’s the God of the Bible, unless it’s in the bottom writing i can’t read. It’s interesting there is the all-seeing eye of Horus at the top and a few other ancient Egyptian sun-worshiping symbols surrounding it. Maybe it’s Lucifer’s commandments. He does counterfeit everything that God created and puts his own twist on it. Who paid for this monument do you know? Who made and set it? It sure looks masonic.

    1. pk 11:01 A fine post. The Fargo 10C monument was given the City by the Eagles Fraturnal Org. The Eagles apparently received at least some money for placing these all over the country from Cecil B. DeMills as a promotional effort of his movie, The Ten Commandments. Actor Chaleton Heston did his part in the promotional effort by appearing at the Peace Garden for a moument dedication.

      There is a story too long to tell about how the inscription used was agreed to. It was a compromise between some Catholic and Jewish clergy of the day. The monument inscription does not say “Christian”, but has a cross on it as well as a Jewish star.

      The monument says you shall believe in God and no other god. Too bad it did not say “Unless you choose not to believe in any god, that would be OK, too.”

      If you want to know more about the history of these Eagle’s monuments, my friend, Bob Ritter, has posted a lot of information about them, including pictures of most of them. I took some of the pictures. Here is his site:

      1. pk

        The Eagles, one of many similar secret sun societies. The eagle represents the sun. I could tell just by the style it was made by one of these organizations. By the way, the cross and star of David are also ancient Egyptian religious symbols. I know we’ve covered symbols before, but there does seem to be an enormous infatuation with ancient sun worship from religions(and not just symbols), to corporations, to governments. And all of freemasonry are openly religious institutions.

        Just one question. Instead of going through this legal battle to get these monuments removed, even though they are constitutional, and whine because it doesn’t say this or that, why not all pitch in and file to erect your own monument somewhere else on the property, or has that been tried?

        1. Henry

          PK “why not all pitch in and file to erect your own monument somewhere else on the property, or has that been tried?”

          Sorry to butt in, but to be equal, Jon would have to produce an Academy Award winning movie so popular, it is #6 for revenue. Jon IS squealing about equality, so there you have it.

          1. Henry

            No. Finding the equality for Jon he is seeking. Treat everyone equal. That is what he claims they want. Set up a monument on city property, doing it under the same conditions. Take “equal” past the extreme Jon wants. Let’s see if they can do it.

        2. pk 1:45 Yes, we offered to pay all costs of installing a monument of equal size inscribed with the Treat of Tripoli, “The United States government is not a Chirstian nation..(approx words)”. Long story short, they turned us down.

          And, about the Eagles, there is a requirement you believe in “God” in be a member.

          1. pk

            Why not a monument with the freethinkers moral compass, your equivalent to the 10 commandments, not an expensive opinion on whether or not the US is a Christian nation. Isn’t that type of monument more reasonable and comparable to what the other monument is saying?

  12. Bob

    PK 11:01 I know you’re addressing Jon, but…LOL!!!

    Hee, hee. Its funny cause you act like differing supernaturalist symbols are better than others. So funny. Awww…and so serious. lol

    1. pk

      It’s not surprising that every time i bring up the devil it’s always so funny and silly, but Jesus is always so bad and evil. Sun-worship has been the dominant religion in history, not any of the others you always mention. One can make an argument that Christianity was seized by Pagan Rome, to be used as a camouflage, a long time ago and that it hasn’t changed much.

    2. pk

      On another note, do you not think a government designed to protect the basic rights of every individual is a good thing? The government we have today is not the one our founders created. You call yourself an anarchist so you would rather have a world where there is no penalty for murder, theft, rape, slavery etc? Nobody to settle disputes? How could a society function under those conditions? We would live like wild animals, survival of the fittest.

  13. entech

    From : religious-liberty-a-license-to-discriminate
    Jon Lindgren says:
    April 28, 2012 at 11:24 pm
    Bob 11:21 “And if Jon doesn’t mind.”

    The floor is yours, and everyone else’s. We’re all here to talk.

    So Demosthenes and Wanna, you see anyone can reply to anyone, it is an open and free forum.
    It would be nice though if Wanna could learn to stay on track

    Wanna 9:20 pm Interesting and true, but totally removed from the thread, except in the Wanna B head.

    Demosthenes 9:11 pm Not only on track but actually includes a quote from what you said and a direct response to the unwarranted extension you applied.

    Wanna = non sequitur. Demosthenes = good observation.

    On another point.
    Wanna 11:11 pm. This must be the closest example to Argumentum ad hominem as is possible, practically a definition.

  14. Wanna B Sure

    Entech; If it had been “All creatures Great and Small”, instead of Mein Kampf, you probably wouldn’t have seen it as argumentum ad hominem. It is only a book that contains some similarities with Bob’s anti religion, (dosen’t make any difference if it is Jew, Christian, Islam, or Shiva. ), and the cause/case against the established political structure. Some of the conclusions contained in Mein Kampf is another matter. I did say that there were some similarities, and that remains. I did not exactly the same. A typical knee-jerk reaction to make a seperation.
    Re. the non-sequitor, I did qualify it in my 9:35, and Henry agreed with the content., however I could have been more explainative in the original post. Yes, it was in my mind, and I assumed that it would be clear to others due to the context of the conversation. I was wrong to make such an assumption.
    Re. the “Open Forum”, That has been my understanding too, but sometimes not so curtiously applied. I was surprised with Demo, and simply returned the favor.

  15. entech

    The Bible has some awful things in it, genocide, rape, homophobia, incest and so on.
    You have read the Bible.

    All Creatures Great and Small is the story of a country vet in England, it is a pleasant and sentimental thing, quite innocuous and full of nice thoughts.
    I have read the book and seen the television series.

    Based on reading material who would you trust. ❓
    There you are ad hominem and non sequitur in two little sentences. I think you confuse what is correct with what you think it ought be.

  16. entech

    I thought I had just ‘splained, if you can’t follow, won’t follow or simply reject than that is not my problem.

    I won’t bother trying to ‘splain again.

    1. Wanna B Sure

      Can’t you be original? This has been done before. Evidently to no benefit. If you can’t follow the thought or keep up, try it on someone else. I won’t fall for your games. or an attempt to twist out of the obvious. I have seen the same or better in the halls.

      1. entech

        Not trying to be original, just using some of the self delusional tactics that you revert to, just trying to point out the error of your ways.

        1. Wanna B Sure

          Oh my! How the roles are reversed now. The terrible “error ” rears it’s ugly head, and just revealed that anyone you disagree with you is wrong. The same accusation you apply to anyone else, only in reverse. A 50-50 proposition at best. Your opinion vs. another opinion, that is all. Have a nice lunch.

          1. entech

            Your right it is lunchtime and I must run to catch the train into the city, lunch and a philosophy group. Not everyone is wrong, often I am, essentially you almost always are.

          2. Wanna B Sure

            There you go again. No 50-50- in your vocabulary. Opinion vs. opinion is not an option for you. but judgementalism is. What is an acceptable ratio for you? You @20%- others @80%? If you feel comfortable with that, you judge 80% in disagreement with you wrong. Your opinion is 80% better? Does that make you 80% better too? or would you preffer 90/10? Hmmmmm.

          3. entech

            How sad that you have fallen so far. Used to be able to have some really good discussions. Now it seems you ego is such that every time you see something wrong in the mirror you project it on to others.

            3:12 Not everyone is wrong, often I am,

          4. Wanna B Sure

            Interesting that you admit being in being wrong, (sometimes),yet you claim I’m delusional. Yes, it used to be interesting to have a discussion with you,but now it seems difficult to discuss anything with you. It would appear that your high regard of yourself prevents from actually listen to what is said, and hearing it, because it can be in disagreement with you. You are a non-beleiver, I”m not. Wouldn’t you expect disagreement? Looks like disagreement dosen’t agree with you.
            You talk about a mirror, use it. A marketing tool is to smile in the mirror when talking on the phone.

          5. Wanna B Sure

            I think my 2;48 said essentially the same thing–about six hours earlier.. I could be in error on the minutes. Too bad we can’t do this face-on. A real smilie face would go a long way .
            So, haw far into the fall are you down there? Leaves gone or going?

          6. entech

            OK I submit, admit defeat.
            We are both delusional, but you are so much better at it than me.

            The autumn leaves drift by my window.

          7. Wanna B Sure

            And how do you quantify that “better”?–or less?
            When my wife says that I am the best husband, a appreciate the comment. I then ask “compaired to who, and how do you know”. Are your dilusions in black and white,(grey included), living color, or 3D?

        2. entech

          Yes qualify is better than quantify. Although both could be true you do have a lot of them.

          But I would say the quality of you delusions is profound, you have a depth of faith and belief in the existence of the unseeable, the undetectable, the unknowable and the ultimately unlikeable that I could never have. I am looking for hints and possibilities, you have absolute truth and this is the measure of your delusion both the depth and the certainty.

          Your misspelling when you say dilusions for delusions is very telling, your excess of ego and limited imagination actually dilutes your view of reality. Go outside on a clear evening, somewhere away from city lights and look at the sky, the sheer number of stars, the volume of it and consider that what you can see is only a part of the total and you are only part of it all, it is you looking up – there is no one up there looking down on you, it wasn’t made with you in mind, in the terms of you egomaniacal belief system there is no creator who made it all with you in mind, the idea that you are put on earth to worship and glorify this creator is only a reflection of your own desperate need to overcome your inadequacy.

          As the young would say, Get Over Yourself.

          1. Wanna B Sure

            Now that you got that off your chest, do you have any more lingering free floating anxiety and anger? Glad to see you can vent and let some of that pressure off. Wouldn’t want to see you self-destruct. Philosophy will only get you so far, and it looks like you have reached the limit. I recommend two gills of port. Counseling is too slow.

          2. entech

            Not anger only frustration in the face of deliberate and willful stupidity from some one I know is capable of so much more. Amazing how your vitriol has turned against me simply because I offer some vague support to Bob.

            Is it possible you are having doubts about your religious convictions and this is the finale of a losing battle.

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