If You Pray, Pray You Don’t Send Any Kids to An Early Grave.

There are two facts about kids we know.  I think it worth while to ponder the relationship between the two.

One is that gay adults who look back on their childhood often realize they saw the world differently than their playmates.  They saw children of the same gender differently, even though they did not then think of themselves as gay.

The other is the suicide rate for gay teens is much higher than that of straight kids.  Some of the suicide decisions must have been influenced by religion.

We all know adults never consider that the small child in the room with us may be gay.  It is always assumed a child is heterosexual.

The other day, evangelist Joel Osteen was on Oprah’s show.  According to what I read, Oprah approached the subject of sin and gay more than once.  Each time Osteen reaffirmed his belief that gay is sin.

Imagine a child seeing this, or, his parents discussing it.  Would not the child think, “That I find Billy more interesting than Mary is a sin?  Will I go to hell? Why am I so terrible?  I can’t seem to stop thinking in this sinful way.”

Talking about the gay religious taboo in front of kids seems just as harmful to me as telling nasty gay jokes.  They both have the potential for bad ends.

Whatever your religious aversion to gay people might be, talking it up in front of small children is not something to be proud of.

Avatar of Jon Lindgren

About Jon Lindgren

I am a former President of the Red River Freethinkers in Fargo, ND, a retired NDSU economics professor and was Mayor of Fargo for 16 years. There is more about me at Wikipedia.com.
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25 Responses to If You Pray, Pray You Don’t Send Any Kids to An Early Grave.

  1. TarGOST says:

    And this relates to prayer how?

  2. James says:

    I think that the best way to protect them would be to discourage a gay lifestyle as their odds of going to an early grave via the HIV virus are greatly increased.

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      James 1:30 As I understand it, HIV is now spend mostly by heterosexual sex.

      • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

        I’ve had a slight shift in my point of view on this topic. I used to blame certain fundamentalist religions for furthering hatred of certain groups.

        Now I’m thinking that the people who spew the hate have just as much or possibly even more responsibility for the harm they do.

        I’ve actually recently met a few people who attend churches that scare the daylights out of me, yet these people are very mind thier own business when it comes to my personal life.

        As I’ve always said ‘haters gotta hate’ I think many of them use religion as an excuse.

      • James says:

        In Africa that may be true, which skews the curve, but in developed countries the primary source of transmission is still homosexual intercourse.

        • Avatar of Mac Mac says:

          James, it’s been my observation that those who use disease transmission as the excuse for their hatred of gays really don’t give a rat’s ass about the health or welfare of gay people.

          • James says:

            I see. Telling the truth is spreading hatred. It’s that kind of thinking that allows the continued spread of HIV. Yup, Let’s just keep on whistling through the graveyard dear. Nothing can distort my view of reality.

  3. Bob says:

    The point of this post is, at least to me, don’t be a dickwad, a complete and utter evil foolish jerk, and talk about Gay people in a negative way in front of children, because they might be gay, and apparently 10% of them are, and you could irrevocably hurt them, really really really bad.
    Kids come before everything.
    Who cares if some of them are gay, they’re kids. Kids are kids, who cares? Why can’t kids come first no matter what?

  4. Wanna B Sure says:

    Jon; We know that there are Christians/ claimed Christians that are, accept, even promote homosexual activities.
    Are there those of non belief including antitheists that don’t accept or promote homosexual activities/lifestyle?

    • Avatar of Jon Lindgren Jon Lindgren says:

      Wanna 5:53 “Are there those of non belief including antitheist that don’t accept or promote homosexaul activities/lifestyle?”

      I have never heard an Freethinker use “lifestyle” which is mostly considered a pejorative term used to imply permiscuity. Since the concept of sin is not something considered by a Freethinker, that is not in play either. Nevertheless, one encounters a Freethinker here or there who does not want to work with gay groups. As a local fellow posted on our list serve a year of so ago, “I just do not identify with the problems of the gay community.” He lives in a small town, probably feels he does not know any gays–though he probably does and does not know it–and just finds the gay issue something remote to him. I would not say he is against equal rights for gays, he is just indifferent to their problems.

  5. Bob says:

    Wanna 5:53″Are there those of non belief including antitheist that don’t accept or promote homosexaul activities/lifestyle?”

    I can’t speak for other non-theists, but for myself, I don’t care if people are gay, anymore than I would if they were heterosexual. Why would I care? If they are nice people, not axe murderers, bank robbers, and so on, why should anyone care who other people love? I just don’t get why anyone cares. Its beyond me.

    The only reason I can think of that people would care enough even to oppose or hurt or speak ill of non-heterosexuals, or any other non-Abrahamic appoved sexual relationship, is because thier Abrahmaic books tell them to hate, despise, and or kill those people.
    Its evil to support hate-books like the three Abrahamic books.

  6. entech says:

    Wanna 5:53. Yes there are. Gay bashing (physically) comes and goes in Australia and England, probably in America too. Mostly perpetrated by louts, thug like people who can’t see beyond the next drink, the same groups give the Salvation Army a hard time to, especially the young female ones innocently singing their songs on street corners. Incapable of holding or arguing a position. You don’t have to be a Christian to be a homophobic bigot, but it is a big help if you are.

    • Wanna B Sure says:

      A big thank you !

    • James says:

      Look who’s being a bigot now. To characterize all Christians as homophobic bigots just shows that you’re a bigot yourself. Capable of visiting that same sort of treatment upon groups that you don’t identify with.

      • entech says:

        Stick around for a while James and you will get used to my rhetorical style, note that I did not say that all Christians were homophobic bigots; what I actually said was “You don’t have to be a Christian to be a homophobic bigot,” it is clear what I meant in the context of the answer to WannaBSure’s question and the response. If it was not a point of agreement I would have been (rightly) chided for the snide hyperbole in the addendum.

        • James says:

          You generalized. Which means you meant all christians.

          • entech says:

            “You don’t have to be a Christian to be a homophobic bigot”, means all Christians according to you, you who says to Mac Nothing can distort my view of reality. Taking this rather distorted logic of yours I could suggest:
            You don’t have to be a Christian to be a vegetarian, therefore all Christians are vegetarians. Conversely, “You don’t have to be a vegetarian to be a Christian” surely means “all vegetarians are Christians”, I know a few Buddhists and they are all vegetarian but I assure you there are definitely not Christian either (actually I know a few Christians that are vegetarian and they are definitely not Buddhists).

            Although misused in this blended word phobia means fear, the first part is a contraction of homosexual. So being as homophobe should literally mean being frightened of homosexual people, now we have to wonder why such fear can turn into hatred – not a difficult leap as it turns out, in war a fear of the enemy can turn to hate. Now, by analogy with such words as agoraphobia which is a fear of leaving a small safe place, which could in ‘general’ a fear of being out in the open, we could suggest that a homophobe is frightened of being a homosexual. Further we could take it that someone who leaps on any criticism of the bible/torah/koran is actually having doubts, are almost ready to be freethinkers.
            So, if I were to say “You don’t have to be a closet gay atheist to defend the bible and protect people from aids by discouraging a gay lifestyle“, how would you react? I would say looking at it objectively it is a pretty pointless thing to say, unless it were as part of the answer to a specific question. To take it as a generalisation, totally out of context, could, perhaps, in an extreme case be indicative of some underlying problem with the person making the extension.

          • James says:

            “Nothing can distort my view of reality” was in reference to MAC’s view. Not mine. I should have phrased it differently like , “Let’s not let the truth distort my view of reality.” You can attempt to rationalize your comment, but let’s face it. You know what you meant and so does anybody with half a brain.

          • entech says:

            “Let’s not let the truth distort my view of reality.” Actually I think you are making it worse, this reads as if your view of reality is independent of the truth, I will make a deliberate generalisation here, and like all generalisations – it could be viewed as a bit dubious – based on your statement all Christians would rather hold on to their beliefs and not consider the truth, that truth does not matter only my faith. Or perhaps I am (deliberately) misreading again and this truth/reality dichotomy is something that you are attributing to Mac. From the little I know of Mac and only from reading what he writes, he is a committed Christian, he is also in a committed relationship with another man – so there you are faithful to his beliefs and to his partner what could possibly be wrong with that.

            As for your distortion of my words, point by point without my usual attempts to turn a pretty phrase:
            Question WannaBSure 5:53
            Jon; We know that there are Christians/ claimed Christians that are, accept, even promote homosexual activities.
            Are there those of non belief including antitheists that don’t accept or promote homosexual activities/lifestyle?

            My interpretation
            1.”There are Christian people who support homosexuality as being legitimate” (there seems to be a little ambiguity in the statement as to whether such a person can be a Christian or merely claims to be, again this could be my incorrect interpretation)
            2. “Are there non-believers who do not support homosexuality as being legitimate”, or more bluntly, “are there non-believers who display hate and aggression to gays”
            In summary; The suggestion that gay hatred is largely religious in nature is claimed to be a religious hatred attribution by non-believers, is gay hatred confined to religious people and can the claim be denied.
            Bit long winded and I have tried to say it in a couple of different ways.

            In my answer I spoke of many cases where gay men were attacked verbally and physically for reasons not religious, and there are many that are shared regardless of belief or lack of belief, faithful or infidel (sorry getting carried away with the sound of my own pen again) fear of “the other” of outsiders, learned bigotry, not having the empathy to accept that something different can have its own independent validity or in some cases from sheer stupidity due to having half a brain.
            In summary: Yes there is non-religious gay hatred out there. A religious viewpoint is not a requirement for hatred.
            To add to that I agree with Mac when he says it is not religious fundamentalism that is the only cause of outsider hatred but is often an excuse disguised as a reason. qualification in italics my own interpretation.

        • James says:

          I’m glad you have so much time on your hands to waste in order to rationalize your argument regarding a pointless and silly subject. Myself? I went and had a cappuciano while you were wasting all of your mental energy. Chow.

  7. Bob says:

    I believe its still evil to support the hate filled Abrahamic books.

    The bibile, torah, and koran don’t even try to hide their hate of gay people.

  8. Bob says:

    I have not read them from end to end, no, but have read big chunks of all three, along with lots of commentary on the books from many different writers. And of course, growing up Lutheran, was indoctrinated to Christianity and was preached at out of the bible ad naseum.

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